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Post by macca on Aug 21, 2019 17:25:37 GMT
Live music is not a reference for recorded music. That might seem counter-intuitive but it's true.
You think recording microphones are accurate? You think the engineer is sat there twiddling the knobs trying to get it to sound like it does down the pub? Come on!
Every system I have heard where the owner has pursued a 'live' sound has made a right dog's dinner of a racket except with a handful of super-smooth audiophile recordings. This isn't the 1980's, get away from the flat earth Dave!
None of you have heard BIG active ATC's and similar large monitors (the JBL 4367's would do it, but nobody's bought any in the UK I gather despite liking the sound), so maybe you have no idea what I'm going on about!
Yes I have heard the ATC ASL100 and indeed I would have bought some had I been a millionaire. Also heard the big JBLs too - the 4365 which is the model above. Yamaha NS1000M? yes heard them, although with a crappy amplifier. Ureis? Yep, heard them, they are very good. PMC professional? - yes, would have a pair of them also. Tannoy Lockwood and DMT? Yes, heard them. Never heard big Altecs though. Now I know that's not every big studio monitor ever (not heard the Harbeth offering for instance) but it's a pretty good selection. My issue with what you're saying is that very few records are made like those 50s jazz examples so unless that sort of thing is all you listen to -and you've got a system capable of massive dynamic peaks - it's no bloody use hearing it live as any sort pf pointer to judge speakers on. I want to know if the speaker can do difficult stuff, 1970s rock where they've used every track on the desk and bounced around loads so it's all a bit noisy and murky (compared to a top end digital recording) - which is why I like to test with Earth Wind And Fire, or Thin Lizzy - Live and Dangerous. If it can make sense of that sort of thing it will piss it with fifties jazz.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 17:26:37 GMT
Might be worth squeezing in a small sub if you can Ollie? I have to be honest Ali, I think it may be overkill. I see what Macca is saying and I'm listening for it as I type this but I honestly think it would boom or get out of control, if I went for even more bass or deeper bass. Obviously I could be wrong.
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Post by macca on Aug 21, 2019 17:32:11 GMT
!st graph is your FR anechoic and in room. Bear in mind the in room will be done with the speakers placed as intended by design i.e hard up against a wall. Even then you're 5 db down at 50 Hz. That's going to give a lack of deep bass. On a test tone you'll hear low bass but not when you play music because it's too far down in level compared to the rest of the spectrum so it will be masked. Ideally you want the bass to be at a higher amplitude than the mid or top, the ears then balance this out as they are less sensitive to low frequencies. Second graph shows frequency response on axis (0 degrees) and at various points off axis. It is accepted fact that a speaker with a smooth off-axis response will sound better on axis as reflected sound is evenly dispersed. They only get a bit wonky in the mids and HF, mostly over 5khz where not much is happening anyway, so that's not bad. Third graph shows your impedance across the frequency range. It's pretty much bang on 8 ohms right across the FR and higher in the bass. This is good, it gives the amplifier a very easy load. What you don't want is lots of peaks and troughs as that will work the amp much harder - - that's what the Krell was designed for, speakers where the impedance swings all other the place, and especially where impedance goes very low. I suspect the Neurochrome will not be bothered by such speakers either. But your Pioneers are almost as easy a load as a single driver speaker. Even a piss-poor amp will not struggle at all with them. I see what you mean and what they mean too. Thanks for the analasys. I get it a bit now. Now just to put all of that In My ear and decipher it's meaning in auditioning terms. Yeah it's not rocket science is it? And despite what some say you can predict from the measurements how a speaker will sound. Okay it won't tell you if it can convey the emotion in Diana Krall's voice, but it will tell if the speaker is basically a good design, that it will sound balanced with all types of music, whether it is likely to boom in your room, where best to place the speaker (fine tune by listening ofc but it gets you in the ballpark) and loads of other useful info. Otherwise what are you going to do? Try every speaker on the market within your price range? In your own home? I mean there is no chance but some people say that measurements are pointless. It's crackers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 17:36:47 GMT
I see what you mean and what they mean too. Thanks for the analasys. I get it a bit now. Now just to put all of that In My ear and decipher it's meaning in auditioning terms. Yeah it's not rocket science is it? And despite what some say you can predict from the measurements how a speaker will sound. Okay it won't tell you if it can convey the emotion in Diana Krall's voice, but it will tell if the speaker is basically a good design, that it will sound balanced with all types of music, whether it is likely to boom in your room, where best to place the speaker (fine tune by listening ofc but it gets you in the ballpark) and loads of other useful info. Otherwise what are you going to do? Try every speaker on the market within your price range? In your own home? I mean there is no chance but some people say that measurements are pointless. It's crackers. Yes, I see the value in measurements but we can only judge on those, like you say. Expect an inbox full of potential speaker candidates for your expert opinion lol
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Post by macca on Aug 21, 2019 17:43:19 GMT
Cool. Don't forget I've got these B&O here, midrange domes, they are quite tasty. I don't think you'd want to keep them but for now would give you a second opinion on the stuff you are reviewing and building. Or you could have a go on the IMF TLS50 - although they ideally need the caps doing on the xovers - now they are fun in the bottom end. I'm sure I've said it before but your room is only divided from the next one by those glass doors. As far as a bass wave is concerned they won't even be there. so your room is actually a lot bigger to a loudspeaker.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 18:18:05 GMT
Cool. Don't forget I've got these B&O here, midrange domes, they are quite tasty. I don't think you'd want to keep them but for now would give you a second opinion on the stuff you are reviewing and building. Or you could have a go on the IMF TLS50 - although they ideally need the caps doing on the xovers - now they are fun in the bottom end. I'm sure I've said it before but your room is only divided from the next one by those glass doors. As far as a bass wave is concerned they won't even be there. so your room is actually a lot bigger to a loudspeaker. No, not forgot Martin. Unfortunately the fake ligament they put in my shoulder has stretched so I've been at the hospital 3 days in a row having scans to see why. Apparently it's as rare as rocking horse Sh#t that this happens and as usual, it happens to me. Probably have to have it redone FFS. I'll recap those speakers for you if you want, I presume you have the caps?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 18:38:57 GMT
Cool. Don't forget I've got these B&O here, midrange domes, they are quite tasty. I don't think you'd want to keep them but for now would give you a second opinion on the stuff you are reviewing and building. Or you could have a go on the IMF TLS50 - although they ideally need the caps doing on the xovers - now they are fun in the bottom end. I'm sure I've said it before but your room is only divided from the next one by those glass doors. As far as a bass wave is concerned they won't even be there. so your room is actually a lot bigger to a loudspeaker. Just reading your thoughts on the IMF TLS50 I'll recap them and bring them straight back lmao!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 18:45:12 GMT
Cool. Don't forget I've got these B&O here, midrange domes, they are quite tasty. I don't think you'd want to keep them but for now would give you a second opinion on the stuff you are reviewing and building. Or you could have a go on the IMF TLS50 - although they ideally need the caps doing on the xovers - now they are fun in the bottom end. I'm sure I've said it before but your room is only divided from the next one by those glass doors. As far as a bass wave is concerned they won't even be there. so your room is actually a lot bigger to a loudspeaker. Just reading your thoughts on the IMF TLS50 I'll recap them and bring them straight back lmao! Apart from electrostatics or horns, it's difficult to imagine speakers more different to the Pioneers than the TLS50's. They'd probably take up as much room, but they wouldn't need stands. Just fasten down any loose ornaments and china!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 18:48:01 GMT
Just reading your thoughts on the IMF TLS50 I'll recap them and bring them straight back lmao! Apart from electrostatics or horns, it's difficult to imagine speakers more different to the Pioneers than the TLS50's. They'd probably take up as much room, but they wouldn't need stands. Just fasten down any loose ornaments and china! Lmao. Tbf, I've just found a pair of speakers I'd love to try but too rich for me at the minute. I'm stopping looking and enjoying what I have here right now. Regardless of their faults, they always entertain me. A bit piano on at the minute and it's convincing.
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Post by karma67 on Aug 21, 2019 19:19:25 GMT
ive heard the hpm 100's at john woods when i took my amp to him,to test my amp out he hooked it up to his hpm's he really rates them highly,all i can say is that they handle very high volume as he had it cranked up most of the time,i had to shout to talk to him! at normal listening i couldnt say. i did some digging and it would appear they get mixed reviews on audiokarma.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:08:53 GMT
ive heard the hpm 100's at john woods when i took my amp to him,to test my amp out he hooked it up to his hpm's he really rates them highly,all i can say is that they handle very high volume as he had it cranked up most of the time,i had to shout to talk to him! at normal listening i couldnt say. i did some digging and it would appear they get mixed reviews on audiokarma.
They look stonkingly good, I must admit. However, I think I may need a degree a refinement to please macca when he visits lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:09:25 GMT
ive heard the hpm 100's at john woods when i took my amp to him,to test my amp out he hooked it up to his hpm's he really rates them highly,all i can say is that they handle very high volume as he had it cranked up most of the time,i had to shout to talk to him! at normal listening i couldnt say. i did some digging and it would appear they get mixed reviews on audiokarma.
That reminds me, did you the the John Wood phonostage for sale?
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Post by macca on Aug 21, 2019 20:12:05 GMT
Cool. Don't forget I've got these B&O here, midrange domes, they are quite tasty. I don't think you'd want to keep them but for now would give you a second opinion on the stuff you are reviewing and building. Or you could have a go on the IMF TLS50 - although they ideally need the caps doing on the xovers - now they are fun in the bottom end. I'm sure I've said it before but your room is only divided from the next one by those glass doors. As far as a bass wave is concerned they won't even be there. so your room is actually a lot bigger to a loudspeaker. Just reading your thoughts on the IMF TLS50 I'll recap them and bring them straight back lmao! I can't recall what I said about them now! Recapping the xovers is a bit more work than it sounds as the boards were glued to the wadding so the back of each board is covered in the stuff. Once done though I reckon there is a first class speaker waiting to come out. But I could be very wrong about that...
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Post by karma67 on Aug 21, 2019 20:24:28 GMT
ive heard the hpm 100's at john woods when i took my amp to him,to test my amp out he hooked it up to his hpm's he really rates them highly,all i can say is that they handle very high volume as he had it cranked up most of the time,i had to shout to talk to him! at normal listening i couldnt say. i did some digging and it would appear they get mixed reviews on audiokarma.
That reminds me, did you the the John Wood phonostage for sale? did i have one for sale? no but i was going to have one built by him but then the paradise came up. id like to hear one though some day
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:31:03 GMT
That reminds me, did you the the John Wood phonostage for sale? did i have one for sale? no but i was going to have one built by him but then the paradise came up. id like to hear one though some day
Sorry, my post went haywire. There is a John Wood Phonostage for sale on one of the forums. I just wondered if you'd seen it as I knew you were Interested. I know you got the paradise instead of having one built but a used one may be good value for a trial.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:38:14 GMT
How about something like this - link
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:46:08 GMT
How about something like this - linkThey look fantastic. Vintage, Japanese and massive. I'll do some research
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:54:55 GMT
I am quite tempted by them, as others are selling for much more. These or a set of KEF 105.2
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:59:38 GMT
I am quite tempted by them, as others are selling for much more. These or a set of KEF 105.2 Have you read the gumf on them? 12 alnico magnets set up as a network lol my word, they went to town on these. 78lbs weight lmao. They are worth it just to hear them. I must admit, they have my juices flowing hahah
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 21:04:00 GMT
Yes. Other sets of the SP300 are selling for over €1k over here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 21:05:04 GMT
Yes. Other sets of the SP300 are selling for over €1k over here. Jesus, I can't find any active listing in the UK 😔
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 21:08:33 GMT
Just having a look around AK and I can't believe it!
Theres plenty of love for CS-77A AND CS-99A!!!
Ill have to move there, they like my speakers hahahaha
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 21:11:49 GMT
There are some SP-200 though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 21:16:49 GMT
There are some SP-200 though. Hmmm, not doing it for me in the same way. I'll keep my eyes peeled, no rush. As I say, I do like my speakers lol
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Post by dsjr on Aug 21, 2019 21:51:18 GMT
The TLS50 was the smallest of the three or four larger ones - there was a TLS80 with KEF B139 bass driver, and originally by the time I came along in '74, a Professional Monitor III and a Reference Standard, which melded together into the better balanced RSPM IV. In our stores, the poor old 50 was kind of overshadowed by the larger ones which really could give you pressure waves on very deep bass notes (DSOTM from Dolby A tapes) and get the windows and doors rattling - using test gear, the PM III in a typical living room wend down to 17Hz, you felt the pressure and heard the door panels rattling rather than hearing a 'note' as such. The Linn aktiv Tune Box 'Bingo-card' over eq'd the active Isobariks to do much the same thing and it could make you seasick on an LP12 vinyl source... I only say the above because the only amps in the early to mid 70's able to properly drive these IMF's in the bass were the same Crowns I use today (we had a D-150 for just this purpose, replaced in '75 with the D-150A which had a front panel and power switch). The Orchard and Neurochrome amps should be absolutely perfect for these I think. Macca, don't expect gobs of midrange from the 50's, they, like the Super Compact which replaced mine, had a slightly recessed midband which was a 'John Wright' trademark on some of his models (loads to suggest on this method of balancing a TL speaker - or RTL3 - but no time or space)
KEF 105.2's? They'll need a recap too I gather and can't remember if the bass driver was decoupled on this version (what it gained in lowering box vibrations it lost in dynamics, although proponents of this idea dismissed that as irrelevant).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 23:25:30 GMT
The TLS50 was the smallest of the three or four larger ones - there was a TLS80 with KEF B139 bass driver, and originally by the time I came along in '74, a Professional Monitor III and a Reference Standard, which melded together into the better balanced RSPM IV. In our stores, the poor old 50 was kind of overshadowed by the larger ones which really could give you pressure waves on very deep bass notes (DSOTM from Dolby A tapes) and get the windows and doors rattling - using test gear, the PM III in a typical living room wend down to 17Hz, you felt the pressure and heard the door panels rattling rather than hearing a 'note' as such. The Linn aktiv Tune Box 'Bingo-card' over eq'd the active Isobariks to do much the same thing and it could make you seasick on an LP12 vinyl source... I only say the above because the only amps in the early to mid 70's able to properly drive these IMF's in the bass were the same Crowns I use today (we had a D-150 for just this purpose, replaced in '75 with the D-150A which had a front panel and power switch). The Orchard and Neurochrome amps should be absolutely perfect for these I think. Macca, don't expect gobs of midrange from the 50's, they, like the Super Compact which replaced mine, had a slightly recessed midband which was a 'John Wright' trademark on some of his models (loads to suggest on this method of balancing a TL speaker - or RTL3 - but no time or space)
KEF 105.2's? They'll need a recap too I gather and can't remember if the bass driver was decoupled on this version (what it gained in lowering box vibrations it lost in dynamics, although proponents of this idea dismissed that as irrelevant).
I'll have listen Dave. Macca thought the IMF was 'pipe and slippers' according to his AoS write up but then he didn't have the Krells to choose from. I'd suggest a recap, more aggro than anticipated but willing to have a go, and some pure power from The 686 or more still from a Krell may induce heart beat disturbance.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 21, 2019 23:38:49 GMT
They're old school UK, so need a little space and the bass may well be a little bloated today. The mids, if not drowned out by the bass, should be very nice on these.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 6:20:21 GMT
They're old school UK, so need a little space and the bass may well be a little bloated today. The mids, if not drowned out by the bass, should be very nice on these. The bass bloat, if it's there, can be tuned down with some extra lagging in the transmission line. Teased out long strand wool will work.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 22, 2019 8:29:43 GMT
ADDING stuffing to the line? Surely not - you're supposed to rip it all out and wallow in the extra box colourations and 'hangover' that makes for a 'better sound' I think adding damping to the line could be a great idea (my Harbeths have an added cushion inner in each behind the tweeters which barely made a difference unlike the HL5's I had nearly two decades back, but the foam liners are so precisely fitted at the back i didn't want to risk messing them up) and I may have also suggested this some time back but can't remember now. I *think* IMF themselves did this in later versions but never got a good look inside to find out. As the range went on before kind of morphing into TDL, the bass did improve a lot and the 80's and RSPM's added low stands too, around 6" from memory. Those little orchard amps with the very taut bass would be ideal blu-tacked to the back. Maybe the laid back? balance is terminally wrong these days, but my feeling is that with a modern vinyl or preferably a digital source, they could come (very) good. Maybe a change too much after over-large Jap boxes of the time?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 8:37:53 GMT
Nothing wrong with acoustic foam in the correct application. People are far too ready to rip it out and bung in 'something better', whatever that may prove to be.
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