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Post by dsjr on Aug 21, 2019 12:40:39 GMT
Get to a few pubs playing live music - unamplified jazz even if it's not your cuppa. Try to get a vibe for the sound before you get too smashed and try to use this as a reference. It wouldn't hurt to buy one or two 50's recorded jazz CD's too to play through the stereo.
Live music is not a reference for recorded music. That might seem counter-intuitive but it's true.
You think recording microphones are accurate? You think the engineer is sat there twiddling the knobs trying to get it to sound like it does down the pub? Come on!
Every system I have heard where the owner has pursued a 'live' sound has made a right dog's dinner of a racket except with a handful of super-smooth audiophile recordings. This isn't the 1980's, get away from the flat earth Dave!
That's bollocks macca! Mics aren't that bad and I mentioned 50's recordings where if a take went wrong, they did it again! back then, there weren't knobs to twiddle and every intent to capture the raw sound as best as possble. That kind-of went out the window in the 60's as studio tweaks became more fashionable. I can't remember suitable CD's to try either (they're packed in a box and have been for over twenty years but I think Art Pepper did at least one which was popular for a while on vinyl and CD)
None of you have heard BIG active ATC's and similar large monitors (the JBL 4367's would do it, but nobody's bought any in the UK I gather despite liking the sound), so maybe you have no idea what I'm going on about! i felt the same as you until I - a, heard a live jazz trio in a pub just outside Ruthin some time back which annihilated all the domestic 'stuff' i'd heard to that point and b, then heard a large pair of active ATC's do a fantastic job of recreating similar in a smaller room and to almost 'live' levels as well. Move forward nearly thirty years and the current models 'do' quiet as well, which mine weren't so good at. FFS, my ATC 100A's even 'did' vinyl well without pulling the format apart as many hi-tech High End speakers do. The sound-field shrunk a bit and the tone varied with the cartridge used, but it wasn't horrendous.
So, in this case, my recommendation stands, as that's all it is. I remember being challenged once on using well recorded voice as a reference too, but voices are what we hear all day every day and it appears our ears are better attuned to this and apparently why we used to furnish our rooms for best audibility of same (unconsciously, but apparently true) until media and fashion for bathroom acoustics took over. I'm afraid I can't supply links to suitable research papers, but I don't believe I'm far out in saying all this.
Westie, I mentioned 1950's recordings, which were done far more simply. Alright, find a collection of good orchestral recordings on CD to judge string tone and then visit a few venues for concerts of favourite music. Of course each venue has a different personality, but massed strings have a particular sound which most domestic (and probably a good few pro) speakers just cannot get right. Quad 57's used to do a fantastic job here, if anything making strings sound more like strings than the real thing. In their tiny way, BC1's were pretty good at massed strings and original tangent RS4's did well with venue acoustics too, but popped badly on rock music I remember.
I'm not suggesting you want to deafen yourselves at home as i once did when neighbours were out, but surely you can use live events to get a handle on the tiny facsimile's we listen to at home? Otherwise, we may as well give up and buy a vintage radiogram because it has a 'nice tone!'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:52:31 GMT
They're treble monsters instead..... I'll get me coat. Lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 13:01:36 GMT
I actually agree with Dave for Only the second time ever lol.
There is definitely value in that exercise.
No, we don't want to recreate live music but there is a balance in a live acoustic situation (no mics) which let's you Know what should sound like what.
I heard a jazz trio recently at Birmingham symphony Hall and they usually play at Christmas too so I'll defo go and have another listen. Very professional group and what I take from the experience is how clean it all sounds when directly into your ear drums. I want a bit more of that and I know the speakers need a bit of a change to achieve it.
BUT
I do t want to lose the ease at which the pio eers deliver the swing in dynamics and I don't want to loose the sheer weight they can also hit you with. A single 6.5" driver isn't going to match that and yes, my pioneers may not be subterranean but I don't think ported bass sounds as good as it does with a sealed cab.
What I need to do, is get out and hear some speakers and see what works for me. JBLs of wardrobe size would be a banker but I ain't rich or got the room lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 13:25:44 GMT
OK boys and girls, This is the official measurements of my speakers. Tell me what I'm looking at and why it matters please. This is an area of gross neglect so need some guidance anger poems by famous poets
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 21, 2019 13:28:10 GMT
OK boys and girls, This is the official measurements of my speakers. Tell me what I'm looking at and why it matters please. This is an area of gross neglect so need some guidance anger poems by famous poetsI’d guide you to carry on grossly neglecting response curves.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 13:29:09 GMT
OK boys and girls, This is the official measurements of my speakers. Tell me what I'm looking at and why it matters please. This is an area of gross neglect so need some guidance anger poems by famous poetsI’d guide you to carry on grossly neglecting response curves. Hahaha, Westie, thanks for your guidance
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 13:31:33 GMT
How do I measure the speakers then to see where they actually roll off
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 21, 2019 13:31:57 GMT
Some people are more sensitive to FR than others. That’s aside, I’d simply say if it sounds good to you, it is good until such time as you hear something that leaves it standing.
I’d bet on you ending up with another vintage speaker within a 12” or greater paper cone bass unit though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 13:45:00 GMT
It's nice to hear the occasional really deep bass note, but most music has few, so a really extended bottom end is not crucial for me.
My (just sold) Tannoys would reproduce a 30Hz tone clearly enough. At reduced amplitude I suspect, but it was there.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 21, 2019 13:46:06 GMT
Don't ignore response curves but instead, learn how to interpret them as best as you can. Dispersion is very important on conventional speaker types, especially at the crossover point where nasty dips can occur off-axis. this may not be an issue in alively room listening head on, but in my case, the absorptive furnishings, carpets and so on tend to absorb this (very crude indeed, but this is one area the room makes a hell of a difference). If you look at the 'room' response below 200hz, you'll see a rise (it's a very coarse curve, but it's around 5db at least at 75Hz and TEN db at 50Hz). In the broadest sense, my room is doing this to a speaker designed 'flat' in an anechoic situation and just turning the bass down on my preamp isn't enough as the bass control on my preamp doesn't work high enough (I need the bass adjustments the Quad 34/44/66 and I think the 77 had which put a suckout in).
Vertical dispersion is important too as going above the tweeter can put an ever deepening dip/notch/suckout in the integration between the main unit and tweeter. My Harbeths suffer this for example and one severe one I remember was the B&W M805, despigned for sitting on a studio meter bridge with tweets at or just higher than the bass unit. If you stood up above them, the high frequencies kind of 'detached' from the rest of it and floated disconcertingly away and above everything else lower down.
Just my take, but try not to ignore the science just 'cos it can look confusing, but try to understand some of it and how it integrates with what we hear. I suppose subjectivist audio is as much psycho-acoustics too and that'll vary from one person to another, which is why the 'science' is there to try to tie it all down a bit...
Way off topic and I apologise. The two amps Oli has at present should completely disappear from the scene now and drive pretty much any domestic speaker without stress or attitude. As for speakers, owning a highly efficient 'retro' model has definite advantages and a gain in one area (deeper perceived bass extension) may well cause a severe reduction in efficiency further up before the crossover has done its nasties.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 13:59:37 GMT
Are you planning on changing your listening space? If so, I would wait until then before any upgrades. I am Kevin but budget and timescale suggests it's years away from Happening so do I wait it out?! Also, I'm not rushing this bit. I usually get "the feeling" when something is right for me and that hasn't happened just yet. What ever you buy now, may not work well in your future listening room, so I would continue the search for a budget speaker and get the end game speaker later.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 21, 2019 14:05:29 GMT
How do I measure the speakers then to see where they actually roll off There are phone apps but more likely would be a mic and a software app on your computer. The published specs show both abechoic and in room plots. Macca was right about rolloff from 100 Hz. Personally I’d doubt any massive differences if you measured in your own room.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:06:10 GMT
How do I measure the speakers then to see where they actually roll off There are phone apps but more likely would be a mic and a software app on your computer. The published specs she both abechoic and in room plots. Macca was right about rolloff from 100 hz. He usually is as speakers are pretty much his wheelhouse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:06:30 GMT
I am Kevin but budget and timescale suggests it's years away from Happening so do I wait it out?! Also, I'm not rushing this bit. I usually get "the feeling" when something is right for me and that hasn't happened just yet. What ever you buy now, may not work well in your future listening room, so I would continue the search for a budget speaker and get the end game speaker later. Good point. I like it.
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 21, 2019 14:07:39 GMT
Have you thought about Macca’s Akais? You could go to town on the crossover if you wanted. Assuming Macca wants to sell of course.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:09:49 GMT
Have you thought about Macca’s Akais? You could go to town on the crossover if you wanted. Assuming Macca wants to sell of course. Nah, I'm going floor stander if I'm changing them. I want a bit more space around the speaker. Room is smallish so imaging improved with the Mission floorstanders but insight fell off massivly
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:09:54 GMT
I have a Tannoy CD with sweep tones, fixed tones and othet tests, but there are plenty of online sites offering audio test tones.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:12:46 GMT
I have a Tannoy CD with sweep tones, fixed tones and othet tests, but there are plenty of online sites offering audio test tones. I'll have a look on you tube
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:16:32 GMT
Rising sweep tone here:
Surprisingly, my PC multimedia speakers are putting out an audible 40Hz.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:24:42 GMT
Rising sweep tone here: Surprisingly, my PC multimedia speakers are putting out an audible 40Hz. So I'm just listening to see what point the bass is audible?
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 21, 2019 14:36:29 GMT
Ther was a pair of SD1s going cheap but they needed an crossover repair. Awesome speakers but I’ve on,y heard then in a big room. Might be like giant headphones in a smal one, but you never can tell. I’d have given them a go if they had been closer.
Edit: sadly they sold for just £340.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:42:29 GMT
That doped pulp coned bass driver (Audax I think) has a wooden colouration through the lower mid that I don't like. Maybe others don't hear it, but I do. I could say the same about the ATC SCM100 too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 14:47:51 GMT
Rising sweep tone here: Surprisingly, my PC multimedia speakers are putting out an audible 40Hz. So I'm just listening to see what point the bass is audible? It can sometimes be difficult to tell if you are hearing deep bass or just feeling it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 15:07:39 GMT
Just done the sweep test and the bass starts (audible, not feel) at 34hz possibly earlier but i have only set the volume at normal levels.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 15:34:38 GMT
Just been having a read of the manual and according to my lug holes, using the "increase" on the treble seems to have evened out the mid bass and its like I'm listening to a different speaker altogether.
It looks like a slightly flatter response due to this and doing the sweep test shortly may provide a bit of a subjective result as to whether the ears are telling the truth in terms of HF extension now apparent.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 21, 2019 16:25:44 GMT
That doped pulp coned bass driver (Audax I think) has a wooden colouration through the lower mid that I don't like. Maybe others don't hear it, but I do. I could say the same about the ATC SCM100 too. Re ATC - SL driver? Active (the passive three way ATC's are crap due to the mid driver not being really suitable for a passive crossover and the phase issues and resonances that often resulted)? Compared to the early '93 pair I had, practically everything has changed (baffle, port, all drivers now and the amp packs too) apart from the raw carcass of the veneered stand mounted version.
The active SL voicing on both 50A's and 100A's is rather less 'tubby' or 'BeeBeeCee' than the previous versions. The pair of stand mounted 100ASL's I heard last autumn were in a different world at lower volumes, but mine were a little thicker toned than a pal's pair used in a livelier room on a solid concrete floor (carpet tiles, so no underlay to 'give'). I'd still have a pair tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 16:34:09 GMT
My mate had the SCM 100 actives for years, running from a Mark Levinson CD player and DAC pre-amp. It sounded excellent, but I could definitely hear that bass driver's woody influence.
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Post by macca on Aug 21, 2019 17:09:05 GMT
OK boys and girls, This is the official measurements of my speakers. Tell me what I'm looking at and why it matters please. This is an area of gross neglect so need some guidance anger poems by famous poets!st graph is your FR anechoic and in room. Bear in mind the in room will be done with the speakers placed as intended by design i.e hard up against a wall. Even then you're 5 db down at 50 Hz. That's going to give a lack of deep bass. On a test tone you'll hear low bass but not when you play music because it's too far down in level compared to the rest of the spectrum so it will be masked. Ideally you want the bass to be at a higher amplitude than the mid or top, the ears then balance this out as they are less sensitive to low frequencies. Second graph shows frequency response on axis (0 degrees) and at various points off axis. It is accepted fact that a speaker with a smooth off-axis response will sound better on axis as reflected sound is evenly dispersed. They only get a bit wonky in the mids and HF, mostly over 5khz where not much is happening anyway, so that's not bad. Third graph shows your impedance across the frequency range. It's pretty much bang on 8 ohms right across the FR and higher in the bass. This is good, it gives the amplifier a very easy load. What you don't want is lots of peaks and troughs as that will work the amp much harder - - that's what the Krell was designed for, speakers where the impedance swings all other the place, and especially where impedance goes very low. I suspect the Neurochrome will not be bothered by such speakers either. But your Pioneers are almost as easy a load as a single driver speaker. Even a piss-poor amp will not struggle at all with them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 17:16:53 GMT
OK boys and girls, This is the official measurements of my speakers. Tell me what I'm looking at and why it matters please. This is an area of gross neglect so need some guidance anger poems by famous poets!st graph is your FR anechoic and in room. Bear in mind the in room will be done with the speakers placed as intended by design i.e hard up against a wall. Even then you're 5 db down at 50 Hz. That's going to give a lack of deep bass. On a test tone you'll hear low bass but not when you play music because it's too far down in level compared to the rest of the spectrum so it will be masked. Ideally you want the bass to be at a higher amplitude than the mid or top, the ears then balance this out as they are less sensitive to low frequencies. Second graph shows frequency response on axis (0 degrees) and at various points off axis. It is accepted fact that a speaker with a smooth off-axis response will sound better on axis as reflected sound is evenly dispersed. They only get a bit wonky in the mids and HF, mostly over 5khz where not much is happening anyway, so that's not bad. Third graph shows your impedance across the frequency range. It's pretty much bang on 8 ohms right across the FR and higher in the bass. This is good, it gives the amplifier a very easy load. What you don't want is lots of peaks and troughs as that will work the amp much harder - - that's what the Krell was designed for, speakers where the impedance swings all other the place, and especially where impedance goes very low. I suspect the Neurochrome will not be bothered by such speakers either. But your Pioneers are almost as easy a load as a single driver speaker. Even a piss-poor amp will not struggle at all with them. I see what you mean and what they mean too. Thanks for the analasys. I get it a bit now. Now just to put all of that In My ear and decipher it's meaning in auditioning terms.
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Post by alit on Aug 21, 2019 17:18:21 GMT
Might be worth squeezing in a small sub if you can Ollie?
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