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Post by iiiwaveshifi on Feb 23, 2023 6:40:51 GMT
Listen to music for 2-3 hours a day, and the sound quality will be significantly improved after half a month, and it will enter the best state after a month . Can u give me more advice? Thanks
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Post by macca on Feb 23, 2023 7:14:07 GMT
amplifiers don't burn in. If it doesn't sound right straight out of the box it's not going to get any better with time.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 23, 2023 7:18:56 GMT
There are others that believe film capacitors in particular take operating time to perform at their best.
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Post by macca on Feb 23, 2023 7:26:00 GMT
not hundreds of hours though.
This is the problem with approaching hi-fi as a belief system.
I've had amps sound crap out of the box, poor match with the speaker load, they never improved, not accepting it just means you stay dissatisfied for longer until you finally bite the bullet and change the amp or speakers for a better match.
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Post by antonio on Feb 23, 2023 8:27:03 GMT
amplifiers don't burn in. If it doesn't sound right straight out of the box it's not going to get any better with time. I think you are mostly right, if you don't like the amp straight out of the box, that is not going to improve with time. I do think though, putting a few hours on it can improve it slightly, probably best described as 'evening out'. Valves certainly smooth out over a few hours.
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optical
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Post by optical on Feb 23, 2023 8:50:58 GMT
amplifiers don't burn in. If it doesn't sound right straight out of the box it's not going to get any better with time. I think some can change in sound signature slightly over time (10-50 hours maybe). As Alan says, ones with big caps in the signal path certainly are accepted by many to change a little after time. You're spot on that if you don't like it from minute one, something is wrong though and no amount of 'burn in' etc is going to get it to acceptable levels. I don't think it's as black and white as "amps don't burn in" though. Yes it's subjective bla bla bla but the O-core transformer in my 686 just seemed to get better and better (heat cycles/coming to settle in whatever) with time. Maybe up to 100 hours. I know some will suspect that's just me acclimatising to it, and it's fine that they suspect that . . .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2023 9:00:13 GMT
Absolutely 100% thought I'd ruined my original 686 when I put a PSU in and took out the SMPS
Around 3 months later (left on 24hrs a day), it came on song. Literally like someone flipped a switch and it just came alive. Was I imagining it? Dunno.
Built another 686 and it sounded ok at first....three months later....bang, came on song.
Never doubted it since.
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 23, 2023 9:45:50 GMT
Absolutely 100% thought I'd ruined my original 686 when I put a PSU in and took out the SMPS Around 3 months later (left on 24hrs a day), it came on song. Literally like someone flipped a switch and it just came alive. Was I imagining it? Dunno. Built another 686 and it sounded ok at first....three months later....bang, came on song. Never doubted it since. Nah. I'll bet the volume level was accidentally set 1db louder. I've certainly heard things go the other way. Way back in the DawnaTime I had a pair of new Meridian 605 monoblocks. Totally stunning sound straight out of the factory fresh boxes. Soundstage hewn from granite, superb. Left them on overnight to settle in so they'd sound even more amazing. Come the dawn...... Yawn. They'd totally lost it. Bland, snoozeworthy. What a letdown. Luckily they were on appro for the weekend. Of course, I realise now that I must have inadvertently set the volume level 1db down
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Post by misterc on Feb 23, 2023 10:47:06 GMT
From personal experience with many, many amplifiers across a broad price spectrum on a pretty regular basis I would more than suggest than break in occurs no question.
How long? that's the $64 thousand question?
Some simpple two stage discrete designs can be a s little as 50-75 hours, Alan eluded to capacitor dielectrics, also the constant heating and colling of the circuit board (Thermal cycling) along with many other non-moving (parts)
I could name a couple of amplifiers models than genuinely take 350-500 hours to fully blossom into the final sonic delivery.
However this also depends on how much current you are using to drive said speakers, for specific periods and with which style music / tune burst / white / pink noise tracks.
Thery don't sound bad out of the create, however listen to the same amplifier say a couple of months later compared to an exact new model, its not subtle.
At the moment I have two amplifiers undergoing break in, one is being 'exercised' via a programmable a/c dynamic load which I have coded a series of test sequences to simulate a listener from a real head banger through to jazz cats and back to Mahler. Sitting on the test rig is a big bugger of an Krell FPB 700 stereo I've just recapped.
The other amp is driving Anne's Tad R-1's @ home which are running out of phase and with a large duvet strapped over them, even though next door is 200 feet away, I like to be neighbourly.
I will share a story with you about a really nice chap who has been a customer for just over 15 years, a while ago he traded his rather nice valve amplifier in for a Liquid music amp.
We set it up in the demo room with some nice Quadral's and waited the usually 45 mins for warm upto occur, however we were left underwhelmed. "This isn't the sound these amps produce?" Pete & I are looking at each other a bit perplexed.
So I took it out placed on the analyser, surprise all good and measured well within the manufacturers specifications, still scratching our heads we placed the amp back in the system and left it playing all day all be it quite loudly!
Around 4.30pm when Pete leaves, he came in the lab and suggested I popped in the demo room smiling, so I'm walking into the listening space and thinking this isn't the sound we have this morning, now the difference wasn't earth shaking or 'night & day' lol however it was presenting a more cohesive sound with greater sound stage boundaries.
The upshot was, we ran this amplifier solidly for two weeks 9-12 hours a day at a decent 85-88dB with a varied programme at the end of that time, the easiest way to describe the change was like a butterfly unfurling its wings after emerging from cocoon. It was full of life, vibrancy, wonderful tonality and best word joyousness.
I'm sure someone is going to suggest your musical memory is playing tricks on you and you have conformation bias, your choice to do so if you wish. Both or us (and the previous owner) would disagree.
Bit of back fill to the story, chap had purchased said amplifier back in 2014 when he took early retirement, he is an avid Jazz/female vocal/strong quartet appreciator, by his reckoning he was listening to about 2-3 hours at least every other day. We did change out the valves in 2018 so he wasn't a once-a-week guy.
However, he never listened about 70dB which was an absolute maximum for him so he never ever taxed that amplifier in any shape of form.
Hence why when gave it something to think about (lol) for extended periods break in finially occurred, that is an extreme example, but it does happen and not just with amps either
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Post by hifinutt on Feb 23, 2023 20:02:27 GMT
amplifiers don't burn in. If it doesn't sound right straight out of the box it's not going to get any better with time. Ha cant agree there .arc amps take several hundred hours to burn in
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2023 7:10:41 GMT
Yes, we are absolute constants regardless of our physical and mental condition, time of day, level of fatigue etc etc
It is the precision electronic component that is varying wildly in its behaviour - but in some mystical way that cannot be measured or quantified and can only be detected by casually listening.
Yep, okay, that all makes complete sense.
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 24, 2023 9:06:30 GMT
Thanks for trying to save us from our own foolishness, Martin.
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optical
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Post by optical on Feb 24, 2023 9:29:42 GMT
Just on the above, it's good to have slightly (or extremely!) differing opinions as it often furthers the debate, if kept sensible, whilst refraining from the classic (and non debate furthering) 'circular argument'.
Ultimately I think what matters more is not necessarily a yes or no definitive, but the message that there is clearly room for differing opinions as well as keeping an open mind.
Regarding the opinions offered so far (and back through years of similar threads), those with in depth technical knowledge and experience also differ on this subject, so nailing your colours to one particular mast is a bit too absolute for me, but maybe that's just me.
All opinions welcome as ever.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 24, 2023 10:35:13 GMT
With my experience of repair/modification/design/build/listening to others, the conclusion is everything matters and can have an effect on sound performance.
Whether it be style of construction, choice of hardware materials, dielectric and conducting material differences, vibration and RFI control techniques, circuit topology, everything has the potential to make a difference. In many instances masking effects will lead you to think otherwise, be it the quality of the weak link in the chain or your mood at the time, apart from other effects.
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Post by robbiegong on Feb 24, 2023 11:18:04 GMT
With my experience of repair/modification/design/build/listening to others, the conclusion is everything matters and can have an effect on sound performance. Whether it be style of construction, choice of hardware materials, dielectric and conducting material differences, vibration and RFI control techniques, circuit topology, everything has the potential to make a difference. In many instances masking effects will lead you to think otherwise, be it the quality of the weak link in the chain or your mood at the time, apart from other effects. True Al, in my experience, the minutest, seemingly most insignificant thing(s) can have an effect and be picked up by your ears, where you perceive a difference, which you may or may not like - that's hifi/this game, it's sensitive, delicate, fragile, sweet-spot hanging on the width of a knife edge. Pretty nuts much of the time, but oh so very real to us.
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 24, 2023 11:34:42 GMT
Well, it's very real to some of us. Not so much to others.
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Post by bencat on Feb 24, 2023 14:45:00 GMT
I have no definite idea about which parts need burning in but it does exist and has caught me out a few times . many years ago I picked up a crossover for my then passive KEF 103 Reference speakers these were all the same value as the original but with film capacitors and better specified resistors all metal film 1% . This was made by another ethusiast who sadly died before using them so never had a signal through them . Did the deed and removed my originals and put these in place checked the wiring and made sure my soldering was secure . Put the speakers back in turn on and yes they were the same speakers but they sounded tight and a little constricted at both ends . So left them all night with some lower volume music playing varied mix and came back to them next day . Sound was now really nice and not only were they back to what they had been but they were better and much improved . Had I not had a little patience and just said that does not work and does not sound better and just removed the new crossover I would never have known .
I also use NVA amps and they say quite clearly that when the transformers and capacitors are new they need a burn in time . They seem to be right as from new the sound gets better over a two or three day period and then really blossoms in to what you expect from that amp .
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2023 7:54:52 GMT
Thanks for trying to save us from our own foolishness, Martin. Nothing to do with that. The o/p asked a direct question, I gave him the answer. Everyone's still free to believe what they want and do wat they want.
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2023 8:04:18 GMT
Well, it's very real to some of us. Not so much to others. Placebo effects are very real it doesn't mean there's anything changing in objective reality. I experience them just the same as everyone else. The only difference is I accept the fact that my perception is not entirely reliable. Example - I bought some rubber washing machine feet from Lidle to raise a sub off the floor. I hadn't set it up and the feet were sat on a shelf. I was reading a thread about isolation and on a whim decided to put the feet under my amplifier, whilst it was in use. The sound immediately changed for the worse. It was so bad I took the feet out after about a minute or two and normal service was resumed. There is no possible way that those feet changed the signal being output from the amplifier in any way. Yet I perceived a big change in the sound. Entirely in my head. especially odd since received wisdom is that isolation/damping improves the sound. So you would think I would either perceive an improvement or no change. But these thing are not predictable. This is why there is such a big market for foo and why people are evangelistic about it. 'I heard it!' No, you perceived it. Not the same thing.
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2023 8:30:11 GMT
I have no definite idea about which parts need burning in but it does exist and has caught me out a few times . many years ago I picked up a crossover for my then passive KEF 103 Reference speakers these were all the same value as the original but with film capacitors and better specified resistors all metal film 1% . This was made by another ethusiast who sadly died before using them so never had a signal through them . Did the deed and removed my originals and put these in place checked the wiring and made sure my soldering was secure . Put the speakers back in turn on and yes they were the same speakers but they sounded tight and a little constricted at both ends . So left them all night with some lower volume music playing varied mix and came back to them next day . Sound was now really nice and not only were they back to what they had been but they were better and much improved . Had I not had a little patience and just said that does not work and does not sound better and just removed the new crossover I would never have known . I also use NVA amps and they say quite clearly that when the transformers and capacitors are new they need a burn in time . They seem to be right as from new the sound gets better over a two or three day period and then really blossoms in to what you expect from that amp . with the crossover there is an explanation, brand new capacitor never had any current through it, will take some time to form. But NVA amps are soak-tested for quite a while (I forget how long) before shipping, so that explanation does not fly there. FWIW I bought a brand new NVA power amp (which you now have) I did not notice any remarkable change in its sound from brand new. It was fine right from the off. I think the idea that equipment gets better over time is attractive to us. If it sounds good from the off and that it will get even better as time goes on, well that is wonderful. Very much in the 'I want to believe' category.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2023 9:48:28 GMT
Well, it's very real to some of us. Not so much to others. Placebo effects are very real it doesn't mean there's anything changing in objective reality. I experience them just the same as everyone else. The only difference is I accept the fact that my perception is not entirely reliable. Example - I bought some rubber washing machine feet from Lidle to raise a sub off the floor. I hadn't set it up and the feet were sat on a shelf. I was reading a thread about isolation and on a whim decided to put the feet under my amplifier, whilst it was in use. The sound immediately changed for the worse. It was so bad I took the feet out after about a minute or two and normal service was resumed. There is no possible way that those feet changed the signal being output from the amplifier in any way. Yet I perceived a big change in the sound. Entirely in my head. especially odd since received wisdom is that isolation/damping improves the sound. So you would think I would either perceive an improvement or no change. But these thing are not predictable. This is why there is such a big market for foo and why people are evangelistic about it. 'I heard it!' No, you perceived it. Not the same thing. Back when i started building the BB3's...quite some time ago now, when i was still finding my feet, i built a BB3 for myself. I took it to Alans for measuring, and when he checked it out, the RIAA was out in the HF. Not loads, but enough to cause an overshoot on the squarewave. Alan corrected it, and i took it home in perfect measuring condition....seen with my own eyes. After a week, i felt i needed to take it back to be checked as it had lost some HF extension, again, just a little, but the shimmeringly nice HF was a little flat. He measured it. It had now a slightly rolled off HF edge on the square wave. He corrected it....with the original value resistors i had previously fitted. We thought it to be a little odd. Only 10 hours or so of use had passed between measurements, but there it was. It had changed audibly, and measurably. We repeated this test later on when i sold a couple, and the exact same thing happened. Overshoot when just built, 10 hours later, perfect. The valves were tested and a known quantity, so i am 100% confident it wasnt the valves. The measurement device was the same, the probes etc, nothing changed and were calibrated too. So something else must have taken some time to bed in. This is a test i can now perform at home, and have, and the result is the same. every brand new BB3 has a small HF overshoot of the Squarewave. After 10-15 hours, it flattens off. Unfortunately, until someone orders one, i cannot repeat and demonstrate it...but when they do, i will. You can tell yourself that lidl feet CANNOT make a difference, or that burn in is a lie/nonsense/impossible, but you can't tell me. I have seen a device change and the only difference to it was how long it had been in use. It never changed again after that initial period BTW.
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Post by bencat on Feb 25, 2023 10:02:51 GMT
Macca that they are soak tested is true but because the amp developed a fault and was upgraded to the latest transformers and capacitors and i was collecting it there was not enough time for it to be soak tested so Paul of NVA told me it would need burn in time which they do during the soak test . If you ask them directly then they will tell you from new they need a burn in period when they open up which because there will be people who will not accpet this they do the burn in anyway to ensure they leave sounding close or near to their best , they do admit that it takes about a month for the final last opening out to occur .
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2023 12:55:27 GMT
Placebo effects are very real it doesn't mean there's anything changing in objective reality. I experience them just the same as everyone else. The only difference is I accept the fact that my perception is not entirely reliable. Example - I bought some rubber washing machine feet from Lidle to raise a sub off the floor. I hadn't set it up and the feet were sat on a shelf. I was reading a thread about isolation and on a whim decided to put the feet under my amplifier, whilst it was in use. The sound immediately changed for the worse. It was so bad I took the feet out after about a minute or two and normal service was resumed. There is no possible way that those feet changed the signal being output from the amplifier in any way. Yet I perceived a big change in the sound. Entirely in my head. especially odd since received wisdom is that isolation/damping improves the sound. So you would think I would either perceive an improvement or no change. But these thing are not predictable. This is why there is such a big market for foo and why people are evangelistic about it. 'I heard it!' No, you perceived it. Not the same thing. Back when i started building the BB3's...quite some time ago now, when i was still finding my feet, i built a BB3 for myself. I took it to Alans for measuring, and when he checked it out, the RIAA was out in the HF. Not loads, but enough to cause an overshoot on the squarewave. Alan corrected it, and i took it home in perfect measuring condition....seen with my own eyes. After a week, i felt i needed to take it back to be checked as it had lost some HF extension, again, just a little, but the shimmeringly nice HF was a little flat. He measured it. It had now a slightly rolled off HF edge on the square wave. He corrected it....with the original value resistors i had previously fitted. We thought it to be a little odd. Only 10 hours or so of use had passed between measurements, but there it was. It had changed audibly, and measurably. We repeated this test later on when i sold a couple, and the exact same thing happened. Overshoot when just built, 10 hours later, perfect. The valves were tested and a known quantity, so i am 100% confident it wasnt the valves. The measurement device was the same, the probes etc, nothing changed and were calibrated too. So something else must have taken some time to bed in. This is a test i can now perform at home, and have, and the result is the same. every brand new BB3 has a small HF overshoot of the Squarewave. After 10-15 hours, it flattens off. Unfortunately, until someone orders one, i cannot repeat and demonstrate it...but when they do, i will. You can tell yourself that lidl feet CANNOT make a difference, or that burn in is a lie/nonsense/impossible, but you can't tell me. I have seen a device change and the only difference to it was how long it had been in use. It never changed again after that initial period BTW. But where are your controls? You say nothing else changed but you are just assuming that and inferring that something unknown happened. Clearly something happened but there's no grounds to state that it was something that could not be quantified with sufficient testing, an 'unknown unknown' if you like. In any case I am not disputing that a brand new capacitor will take time to form and it could really be that simple. That's not the same as an amplifier taking hundreds of hours to 'come fully on song', a claim that has zero evidence behind it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2023 13:10:08 GMT
Back when i started building the BB3's...quite some time ago now, when i was still finding my feet, i built a BB3 for myself. I took it to Alans for measuring, and when he checked it out, the RIAA was out in the HF. Not loads, but enough to cause an overshoot on the squarewave. Alan corrected it, and i took it home in perfect measuring condition....seen with my own eyes. After a week, i felt i needed to take it back to be checked as it had lost some HF extension, again, just a little, but the shimmeringly nice HF was a little flat. He measured it. It had now a slightly rolled off HF edge on the square wave. He corrected it....with the original value resistors i had previously fitted. We thought it to be a little odd. Only 10 hours or so of use had passed between measurements, but there it was. It had changed audibly, and measurably. We repeated this test later on when i sold a couple, and the exact same thing happened. Overshoot when just built, 10 hours later, perfect. The valves were tested and a known quantity, so i am 100% confident it wasnt the valves. The measurement device was the same, the probes etc, nothing changed and were calibrated too. So something else must have taken some time to bed in. This is a test i can now perform at home, and have, and the result is the same. every brand new BB3 has a small HF overshoot of the Squarewave. After 10-15 hours, it flattens off. Unfortunately, until someone orders one, i cannot repeat and demonstrate it...but when they do, i will. You can tell yourself that lidl feet CANNOT make a difference, or that burn in is a lie/nonsense/impossible, but you can't tell me. I have seen a device change and the only difference to it was how long it had been in use. It never changed again after that initial period BTW. But where are your controls? You say nothing else changed but you are just assuming that and inferring that something unknown happened. Clearly something happened but there's no grounds to state that it was something that could not be quantified with sufficient testing, an 'unknown unknown' if you like. In any case I am not disputing that a brand new capacitor will take time to form and it could really be that simple. That's not the same as an amplifier taking hundreds of hours to 'come fully on song', a claim that has zero evidence behind it. It's the same principle, Macca. Amplifiers have huge caps in, so if a small one takes 10hrs to form, isn't it reasonable to expect one 1000 times bigger to require longer? Or are amplifiers immune to this?
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2023 13:13:13 GMT
Macca that they are soak tested is true but because the amp developed a fault and was upgraded to the latest transformers and capacitors and i was collecting it there was not enough time for it to be soak tested so Paul of NVA told me it would need burn in time which they do during the soak test . If you ask them directly then they will tell you from new they need a burn in period when they open up which because there will be people who will not accpet this they do the burn in anyway to ensure they leave sounding close or near to their best , they do admit that it takes about a month for the final last opening out to occur . So again, brand new unused capacitors again - sorry but the idea that it will take a month (720 hours?) for the 'final opening out' to occur is just absurd. Paul is in a good position to test this though, he can take an amp with, say, an hour on it (which should be more than sufficient for the caps to form) and an identical one with 720 and do a blind comparison. Or maybe even some measurements. If he or anyone else can relaibly differentiate between one hour and 720, or if he can show measurement changes that indicate an potentially audible difference then I will pay attention. But no manufacturer does this even though many will claim that their amp needs 100 hours or some other arbitrary amount of burn in. It does? Then show us the evidence. There are a number of reasons they say this, probably the main one is punters expect to be told this as it's often stated by magazine reviewers attempting to sound professional ('I let the amp burn in for 200 hours before starting serious evaluation') so there's an expectation to be met. It's also helpful to discourage returns within the 14 day statutory period, and there's no down side to making the claim. As with any unsubstantiated claim there are downsides to it being paraded as fact without any evidence. We have a member here dissatisfied with his new speakers and even after a few weeks still hoping that they would burn in and improve - because this is what people were telling him. 'Hundreds of hours of break-in'. How long would he have continued being dissatisfied with them, kidding himself that they were improving a little bit day by day? If a technically knowledgeable member had not pointed out to him that his amplifiers can't properly drive the load, possibly he would have eventually decided, after months of dissatisfaction, that they were not for him and have to sell them on at a financial loss. So there are real-world implications and consequences for making unfounded technical claims.
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Post by macca on Feb 25, 2023 13:20:36 GMT
But where are your controls? You say nothing else changed but you are just assuming that and inferring that something unknown happened. Clearly something happened but there's no grounds to state that it was something that could not be quantified with sufficient testing, an 'unknown unknown' if you like. In any case I am not disputing that a brand new capacitor will take time to form and it could really be that simple. That's not the same as an amplifier taking hundreds of hours to 'come fully on song', a claim that has zero evidence behind it. It's the same principle, Macca. Amplifiers have huge caps in, so if a small one takes 10hrs to form, isn't it reasonable to expect one 1000 times bigger to require longer? Or are amplifiers immune to this? really I am only conceding capacitor forming because I don't know if it really is something that affects all types of capacitors or if it really does take any longer than a few seconds. It's quite possible that this isn't a factor at all even if the cap is virgin which it won't be in a commercial amplifier anyway. Where is your ten hours figure coming from?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 25, 2023 13:37:07 GMT
It's the same principle, Macca. Amplifiers have huge caps in, so if a small one takes 10hrs to form, isn't it reasonable to expect one 1000 times bigger to require longer? Or are amplifiers immune to this? really I am only conceding capacitor forming because I don't know if it really is something that affects all types of capacitors or if it really does take any longer than a few seconds. It's quite possible that this isn't a factor at all even if the cap is virgin which it won't be in a commercial amplifier anyway. Where is your ten hours figure coming from? How long I used the Phonostage before something audibly changed.
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 1, 2023 21:50:53 GMT
On the one end a Paradise takes a good 70 hours to burn in, easily measurable as reducing dc offset as caps form. On the other end my neurochrome amps sound exactly as they did 30 seconds after turned them on for the first time.
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