Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2018 16:13:21 GMT
I’m still trying to get a handle on this comparison. I have already concluded that direct firing speakers are “wrong” for me. They hardly ever get height right for one thing. I’m also made uneasy by having the sound fired at me and having to sit in a sweet spot. It feels artificial.
Omnis fill a room, in my limited experience, they don’t have the same focus and things like upper bass don’t seem to have the same urgency. It all feeds the room more naturally to me though. When you turn the sound up, it doesn’t get loud or harden in the same way, which I love. You can also site ridiculously far off axis and still get great sound.
Semi Omnis may be a “best of Both Worlds” or a half way house depending on your tastes. The ones I have tried are certainly less of a leap in presentation from a front firing speaker. I think they are far more likely to appeal to someone who hasn’t tried Omnis and be a more acceptable starting point for them to explore other ways to make music.
It depresses me that so many speakers fire forward and I really wonder how many people have had a chance to try a different approach. I’m so glad I did because I have found so many great speakers. I hope by writing about Omnis and semi omnis, I encourage someone to at least try. I wish I’d done so about 20 years earlier than I did.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2018 23:44:40 GMT
That’s a good analogy. It feels just as uncomfortable now to have those two sonic rays focused on me. Once youve removed yourself from the “firing line” of point and squirt speakers, it feels really forced going back. You can’t tolerate it for long either before you need a break.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2018 15:38:54 GMT
I have never heard a full omni speaker but would really like to. Mr brother in law has just bought some B&O omni thing that i am yet to hear. Didnt cost the earth but not sure what to expect.
I agree with all you have said Andrew. No going back to p&s for me now.
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 6:49:52 GMT
I've never encountered the problems with conventional speakers that you have so I'm not convinced.
Hardening up when you turn the volume up is down to poor amplification, nothing to do with the speakers.
And no recording studio uses semi or full omni speakers for mixing and mastering.
I did have a listen to some Shaianiahan omnis recently and they were pretty impressive but also very expensive. In short I'm just not convinced. But each to their own.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 13, 2018 7:55:36 GMT
Omni's not for me - sorry.
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 8:11:48 GMT
And no recording studio uses semi or full omni speakers for mixing and mastering. Is there any meaningful equivalence between the mixing suite of a studio and the average British living room? |
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 8:15:18 GMT
I’m also made uneasy by having the sound fired at me and having to sit in a sweet spot. It feels artificial. I do think that the current craze for tall, thin floorstanders has made that experience more prevalent... |
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Post by dsjr on Aug 13, 2018 10:08:54 GMT
And no recording studio uses semi or full omni speakers for mixing and mastering. Is there any meaningful equivalence between the mixing suite of a studio and the average British living room? Only if you want to hear the recording more as it was mixed? |
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 11:23:47 GMT
And no recording studio uses semi or full omni speakers for mixing and mastering. Is there any meaningful equivalence between the mixing suite of a studio and the average British living room? Of course there is, when they are producing the recording what environment do they imagine it is going to be played back in? |
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 11:33:06 GMT
Is there any meaningful equivalence between the mixing suite of a studio and the average British living room? Of course there is, when they are producing the recording what environment do they imagine it is going to be played back in? So, mix it in a domestic living room, by that principle... Why would semi-omni not be suitable for a mixing suite? |
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 11:34:40 GMT
That’s a good analogy. It feels just as uncomfortable now to have those two sonic rays focused on me. Once youve removed yourself from the “firing line” of point and squirt speakers, it feels really forced going back. You can’t tolerate it for long either before you need a break. Point and squirt is less obvious on speakers with a wider baffle and larger bass driver, ime. |
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 12:11:00 GMT
Of course there is, when they are producing the recording what environment do they imagine it is going to be played back in? So, mix it in a domestic living room, by that principle... Why would semi-omni not be suitable for a mixing suite?
If almost everyone used semi-onmis then it would indeed make sense to do so, but since almost no-one uses them it makes no sense, as the mix would sound very odd.
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 13:01:05 GMT
So, mix it in a domestic living room, by that principle... Why would semi-omni not be suitable for a mixing suite?
If almost everyone used semi-onmis then it would indeed make sense to do so, but since almost no-one uses them it makes no sense, as the mix would sound very odd.
Why? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2018 13:02:40 GMT
That’s a good analogy. It feels just as uncomfortable now to have those two sonic rays focused on me. Once youve removed yourself from the “firing line” of point and squirt speakers, it feels really forced going back. You can’t tolerate it for long either before you need a break. Point and squirt is less obvious on speakers with a wider baffle and larger bass driver, ime. I hadn’t thought about it but I’d say you’re right. The wide baffle will act as a reflector so it makes sense. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 13:19:06 GMT
But what would happen if the baffle was infinitely wide?
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 15:06:27 GMT
If almost everyone used semi-onmis then it would indeed make sense to do so, but since almost no-one uses them it makes no sense, as the mix would sound very odd.
Why? Why would it make sense or why would the mix sound odd?
Sorry, don't understand - surely the answer to both is pretty self-evident?
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 15:19:20 GMT
Why would it make sense or why would the mix sound odd?
Sorry, don't understand - surely the answer to both is pretty self-evident?
No, not self-evident. Why would the mix sound odd? |
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 15:47:22 GMT
Because they've mixed it using semi-omnis.
I've not practically experimented myself but I suspect that this is one of those things that works one way and not the other. So a conventional mux will work on the omnis but a mix made on omnis will sound very strange on conventional speakers. I'm taking solely about the stereo imaging and placement here of course, not when to bring the guitar in or anything like that.
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 17:18:04 GMT
Because they've mixed it using semi-omnis. I've not practically experimented myself but I suspect that this is one of those things that works one way and not the other. So a conventional mux will work on the omnis but a mix made on omnis will sound very strange on conventional speakers. I'm taking solely about the stereo imaging and placement here of course, not when to bring the guitar in or anything like that. Tracks mixed on point & squirt sound great on semi-omnis. I can't think why it shouldn't be the same the other way round. Full omnis might be a different matter... |
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Post by dsjr on Aug 13, 2018 18:26:10 GMT
Not sure. You see, from my limited experience, studio monitors can be set either side of the window into the performing space (not always, but often I think). The engineer needs to hear exactly what's going on without the sound of the 'playback room' getting in the way too much and many thousands of pounds are spent to try to achieve this I understand.
The point about semi-omni's/full ormni's is that they deliberately spray the sound all over the room, or at least the wall they're up against, 'spray' being the operative word, so what you hear is the room in almost equal proportion to the original sound coming out. In some rooms it (the bigger ones) works pretty well,the reproduced sound being a nice and ethereal/airy sound. In other rooms it's dire,amorphous and peaky the louder it goes - to me at least, but other listeners aren't reacting at all to it, so it's personal preference. Remember I was an Isobarik owner in the early to mid 80's and these things were HUGELY room dependant as well as being a bit variable in themselves.
Horses for courses. Calling conventional speakers 'Point and Squirt' is as bad as AVI's Ashley James calling all non active speakers 'Legacy!'
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Post by savvypaul on Aug 13, 2018 18:31:01 GMT
Not sure. You see, from my limited experience, studio monitors can be set either side of the window into the performing space (not always, but often I think). The engineer needs to hear exactly what's going on without the sound of the 'playback room' getting in the way too much and many thousands of pounds are spent to try to achieve this I understand. The point about semi-omni's/full ormni's is that they deliberately spray the sound all over the room, or at least the wall they're up against, 'spray' being the operative word, so what you hear is the room in almost equal proportion to the original sound coming out. In some rooms it (the bigger ones) works pretty well,the reproduced sound being a nice and ethereal/airy sound. In other rooms it's dire,amorphous and peaky the louder it goes - to me at least, but other listeners aren't reacting at all to it, so it's personal preference. Remember I was an Isobarik owner in the early to mid 80's and these things were HUGELY room dependant as well as being a bit variable in themselves. Horses for courses. Calling conventional speakers 'Point and Squirt' is as bad as AVI's Ashley James calling all non active speakers 'Legacy!' Who first coined the phrase 'point & squirt'? |
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 18:47:07 GMT
I think 'point and squirt' might have been Steve The Shadow. But my memory could be playing me false.
I reckon the mix would not work the other way round - don't know what your knowledge of mixing a recording is, specifically creating the soundstage, mine is not enormous - but from what I do know I suspect it would end up sounding quite odd. Certainly not a conventional soundstage like we are used to.
I'm happy with the conventional way of doing things. It may have evolved that way for no particular reason, and maybe if loads of people heard semi-omni or omni speakers they would flock to them in droves. I doubt it though. There are a lot of forum regulars who have heard them many times but stay with regular speakers, and a fair few who have had them in the past and gone back to regular speakers. So I don't think they are a new way, just one speaker option in a vast sea of options.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2018 19:05:15 GMT
Not sure. You see, from my limited experience, studio monitors can be set either side of the window into the performing space (not always, but often I think). The engineer needs to hear exactly what's going on without the sound of the 'playback room' getting in the way too much and many thousands of pounds are spent to try to achieve this I understand. The point about semi-omni's/full ormni's is that they deliberately spray the sound all over the room, or at least the wall they're up against, 'spray' being the operative word, so what you hear is the room in almost equal proportion to the original sound coming out. In some rooms it (the bigger ones) works pretty well,the reproduced sound being a nice and ethereal/airy sound. In other rooms it's dire,amorphous and peaky the louder it goes - to me at least, but other listeners aren't reacting at all to it, so it's personal preference. Remember I was an Isobarik owner in the early to mid 80's and these things were HUGELY room dependant as well as being a bit variable in themselves. Horses for courses. Calling conventional speakers 'Point and Squirt' is as bad as AVI's Ashley James calling all non active speakers 'Legacy!' Who first coined the phrase 'point & squirt'? I call them straight shooters. Point and squirt just sounds wrong to me. |
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Post by macca on Aug 13, 2018 19:29:52 GMT
'Point and radiate' might be better. The smaller the driver and the higher the frequency the more it does 'squirt' but that applies to the omni/semi omni concept too. With the tweeter angled up you are just bouncing the 'squirt' off of the ceiling. < Ahem > And if you have it firing direct it is no different from what it does in a conventional speaker - it will squirt at HF.
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Post by antonio on Aug 14, 2018 5:38:29 GMT
When I had Shahinians I remember reading (don't know where), omnis reproduce live performances more realistically. How many times have you been to a live concert and come away discussing the soundstage, and how well you could place the musicians ect ect.? I believe one just listens to music as a whole and omnis do this very well.
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Post by macca on Aug 14, 2018 6:52:21 GMT
At a concert you can see where the musicians are. Soundstage on a recording is attempting to mimic that. So we tend to rate a system depending on how well it can project that illusion (amongst other things).
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Post by antonio on Aug 14, 2018 7:09:15 GMT
Only as good as the sound engineer.
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Post by macca on Aug 14, 2018 7:57:49 GMT
And how much time he had, the equipment and so on. Maybe you listen to a lot of classical? I can see how Omni/semi-Omni can give something of the concert hall in your room.
But what has actually been intended by the engineer is for your speakers to be a window onto the concert hall, not for the concert hall to be your room.
UK Flat Earth was all about 're-creating the live performance' as though that was some sort of benchmark should be aspiring to. The result is a system that sounds good with slick productions and fairly simple mixes (e.g 'The Blue Nile') but with more raucous music and/or more complex mixes it sounds like a bag of spanners being banged against a wall.
So you can no longer listen to your copy of 'Thin Lizzy: Live And Dangerous' and you end up only listening to the blandness of Diana Krall or the Linn records catalogue. And going on forums to complain about recording quality and how the engineers don't know what they are doing. In other words, you're down at the end of a long blind alley.
In other words a recording should sound like what it is, a recording, and the perspective should be an insight into the musicians playing in the venue or the studio, not playing live in your room.
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Post by antonio on Aug 14, 2018 13:13:23 GMT
I never listen to classical Macca, and neither am I a soundstage freak. I tend to listen to the music overhaul, which is possibly why I like omno/semi omni speakers. I will say I have mainly been listening to my brother's point and squirt lately though.
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Post by macca on Aug 14, 2018 13:23:34 GMT
Right, I just wondered. Not everyone is bothered about soundstage and imaging. For me it comes secondary to things like tone and clarity but I do like to have a good 3d 'image' if possible.
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