Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 10:12:20 GMT
Been asked a question this morning about RCA sockets and Plugs. Basically, what i recommend using. Interestingly, I am just looking into what I will put on a tonearm cable I have coming in for repair. The Tonearm is an Audio Technica AT6109 PC-OCC cable. So, I have a few 'Go-To' plugs I use: Top of the tree are these, KLE Absolute Harmony RCAs www.analogueseduction.net/rca-din-hdmi-connectors-adaptors-couplers-and-attenuators/klei-absolute-harmony-rca-plugs-set-of-4.htmlThere are a lot of folks who dont understand the differences in the KLE range, and buy the Silver Harmony, or the "Pure" mistakenly thinking they are Silver. They arent. These are the ones you need if you want proper Silver connections. A super close second are these: Aeco Pure Silver RCAs www.lavricables.com/cables/aeco-arp-4055-pure-silver-rca-plugs-connectors-4pcs-1-set/I love AECO plugs. The grip at the connection lasts longer than with the KLEs but the one thing that lets it down IMO is the return tag for soldering. It's way too close to the plugs Jacket and if you use a decent gauge cable, this can cause bending of that tag, which i dont like. As they are the same price as the KLE Absolute, I see no reason to buy these in reality. Some larger cables do fit in to these though, so it is useful to have them as an option. Next up is these: KLE Classic Harmony kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-harmony-plug/klei-classicharmony-phonorca-plug/These were the forerunner to the Copper and Silver Harmony plugs. They are literally the same except for a change in colour coding (confirmed by the company) They don't appear very often but I am always looking for them and snap them up when they appear. Usually around £45 for a set of 4. Next up are the KLE copper Harmony. kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-harmony-plug/klei-copper-harmony-phonorca-plug/These are what usually go on my Spotfire cables if I haven't got any of the classics. You will notice that the Silver Harmony plugs arent on the list...that's because they arent Silver. The return pin is Silver but the center pin is Copper. It's not blatantly clear from the adverts but it's true. So, what's next? These puppies: eden-audio.com/index.php?id_product=477&controller=productWhen I can't get any of the above, which has happened, I go for these MPS RCA plugs. They are great quality and soldering them is easy. They sound excellent too. One of the things purported by the sellers of such plugs is that eddy currents are present in all-metal construction plugs. I cant prove that, but I can tell you that sonically, I have never taken to the likes of WBT and found the least amount of metal to sound best. Also, a hollow centre pin is essential IMO. It just sounds right to me compared with those using a solid or split pin. These plugs are somewhere between the two extremes for me. They dont sound quite as airy as KLEs or AECOs but they dont sound hard, like I found the WBTs did. They are great for a top quality plug for £40 a set. What about sockets? I only use one type..... www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323853261876They are CMC type from Valab. I've tried the WBT ones but didnt like the way the connection is made to the return pin. It was very easy to not make a good connection. So, not saying in right, just sharing my opinion on what I use. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 11:51:24 GMT
It's worth pointing out that the Eichmann/KLE range are not the best for phono dutues for use with tonearm cables purely down to the fact they're not screened. I have fed back to Keith about this several times and whilst he did then offer alloy barrels for the Eichmann range, to my knowledge he hasn't done so with the KLE range.
It's more important for lower level MC's but I sat down one morning a few years back with another audio engineer and we tested a number of cables and plugs for noise coupling to the signal with the use of an oscilloscope, and it was amazing just how much noise got through the Eichmann plugs (KLE and their clones using polymer barrels will be the same). Whilst this may not be as much of an issue at line level where they're generally fine, it is an issue with MC tonearm cables. There were listening tests as well and in every case, the cable with the shielded plugs performed best.
I tend to use shielded plugs now for all phono applicaitons.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 12:14:12 GMT
As for the Aeco silver plugs, they are good. If I use a larger gauge cable, I solder on the inside of the outer tab, and make sure that there is no short.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 12:16:06 GMT
It's worth pointing out that the Eichmann/KLE range are not the best for phono dutues for use with tonearm cables purely down to the fact they're not screened. I have fed back to Keith about this several times and whilst he did then offer alloy barrels for the Eichmann range, to my knowledge he hasn't done so with the KLE range. It's more important for lower level MC's but I sat down one morning a few years back with another audio engineer and we tested a number of cables and plugs for noise coupling to the signal with the use of an oscilloscope, and it was amazing just how much noise got through the Eichmann plugs (KLE and their clones using polymer barrels will be the same). Whilst this may not be as much of an issue at line level where they're generally fine, it is an issue with MC tonearm cables. There were listening tests as well and in every case, the cable with the shielded plugs performed best. I tend to use shielded plugs now for all phono applicaitons. How interesting! I have been using KLE for tonearm cables for gawd knows how long now, bit have never been aware on an audible scale of them any noisier than anything else I've used. Metal bodied or not. Was this noise in the audible range? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 12:17:16 GMT
As for the Aeco silver plugs, they are good. If I use a larger gauge cable, I solder on the inside of the outer tab, and make sure that there is no short. Yea, but I dont like it at all. A small plastic divider such as that used on the MPS and the KLE would be easy to do and cost nothing relatively. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 12:34:47 GMT
Yes, but you can put that in yourself. If I forget the heat shrink, I use a bit of insulating tape.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 12:37:42 GMT
Yes, but you can put that in yourself. If I forget the heat shrink, I use a bit of insulating tape. Yeah, I know and I do that, but for something so easy, seems like a mistake not to manufacturer them that way |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 13:27:57 GMT
As for the Aeco silver plugs, they are good. If I use a larger gauge cable, I solder on the inside of the outer tab, and make sure that there is no short. Yea, but I dont like it at all. A small plastic divider such as that used on the MPS and the KLE would be easy to do and cost nothing relatively. There definitely was both for MM and MC noted when a power supply was brought within about 400mm...you could hear the hum on the un-shielded plugs but not the shielded plugs. What this didn't show though was the destruction of the MC output noise floor (accounting for a lot of low level detail on MC output) which whilst not immediately audible as induced noise was noted as an audible loss of very low level detail. The measurements showed quite a lot of hash on the signal. Again, a screened plug and no problems. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 13:42:47 GMT
Yea, but I dont like it at all. A small plastic divider such as that used on the MPS and the KLE would be easy to do and cost nothing relatively. There definitely was both for MM and MC noted when a power supply was brought within about 400mm...you could hear the hum on the un-shielded plugs but not the shielded plugs. What this didn't show though was the destruction of the MC output noise floor (accounting for a lot of low level detail on MC output) which whilst not immediately audible as induced noise was noted as an audible loss of very low level detail. The measurements showed quite a lot of hash on the signal. Again, a screened plug and no problems. Top marks for doing that research. I will mimic that experiment here and see what happens |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 14:53:35 GMT
You obviously need a quiet environment when doing the listening part...what can make this difficult (or did in my case) was the power supply I used had a slight buzz. A lot depends on the EMI & RFI environment, so it will differ from system to system, but the theory holds up anyway...shielded is always a better idea where phono leads are concerned. The BBC developed a specification for their "low noise broadcast cable standard"(used with mobile vans), and even reasonably modest priced cable to that spec performs really well in this respect (it needs to state that it's geometry is to this specification) although the capacitance has to be taken into account for MM applications. Most MM cartridges are designed for between 150 and 300pF loading (excluding tonearm capble capacitance) and people often forget this. Some twin screened or thin cables can be a total of 170pF/m or greater, and many phonostages employ a standard 47KOhms/150pF input loading. You can see that a "standard" 1.8m tonearm lead can provide up to about 350pF on it's own if of the twin core variety (including plugs which average about 5pF each...I've measured most!). No wonder then that some say their MM lacks detail or sparkle...it's likely too much capacitance loading. I always recommend a coaxial design with greater than 95% braided shielding for phono applications, with a capacitance not exceeding 75pF/m.
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Post by karma67 on Mar 23, 2020 16:39:48 GMT
It's worth pointing out that the Eichmann/KLE range are not the best for phono dutues for use with tonearm cables purely down to the fact they're not screened. I have fed back to Keith about this several times and whilst he did then offer alloy barrels for the Eichmann range, to my knowledge he hasn't done so with the KLE range. It's more important for lower level MC's but I sat down one morning a few years back with another audio engineer and we tested a number of cables and plugs for noise coupling to the signal with the use of an oscilloscope, and it was amazing just how much noise got through the Eichmann plugs (KLE and their clones using polymer barrels will be the same). Whilst this may not be as much of an issue at line level where they're generally fine, it is an issue with MC tonearm cables. There were listening tests as well and in every case, the cable with the shielded plugs performed best. I tend to use shielded plugs now for all phono applicaitons. what could you use as a screen? a bit of copper pipe slid over the kle plug? do you have a link to a good screened plug? im guessing furutech ? |
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Bigman80
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AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 16:43:43 GMT
It's worth pointing out that the Eichmann/KLE range are not the best for phono dutues for use with tonearm cables purely down to the fact they're not screened. I have fed back to Keith about this several times and whilst he did then offer alloy barrels for the Eichmann range, to my knowledge he hasn't done so with the KLE range. It's more important for lower level MC's but I sat down one morning a few years back with another audio engineer and we tested a number of cables and plugs for noise coupling to the signal with the use of an oscilloscope, and it was amazing just how much noise got through the Eichmann plugs (KLE and their clones using polymer barrels will be the same). Whilst this may not be as much of an issue at line level where they're generally fine, it is an issue with MC tonearm cables. There were listening tests as well and in every case, the cable with the shielded plugs performed best. I tend to use shielded plugs now for all phono applicaitons. what could you use as a screen? a bit of copper pipe slid over the kle plug? do you have a link to a good screened plug? im guessing furutech ? I've got two arm cables here, both identical I'm going to run a few experiments and see if I can hear a difference |
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 23, 2020 17:29:01 GMT
Same reason why I always used metal rca plugs for external loading resistor plugs.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 17:33:14 GMT
Same reason why I always used metal rca plugs for external loading resistor plugs. I used to for that purpose. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 17:52:49 GMT
It's worth pointing out that the Eichmann/KLE range are not the best for phono dutues for use with tonearm cables purely down to the fact they're not screened. I have fed back to Keith about this several times and whilst he did then offer alloy barrels for the Eichmann range, to my knowledge he hasn't done so with the KLE range. It's more important for lower level MC's but I sat down one morning a few years back with another audio engineer and we tested a number of cables and plugs for noise coupling to the signal with the use of an oscilloscope, and it was amazing just how much noise got through the Eichmann plugs (KLE and their clones using polymer barrels will be the same). Whilst this may not be as much of an issue at line level where they're generally fine, it is an issue with MC tonearm cables. There were listening tests as well and in every case, the cable with the shielded plugs performed best. I tend to use shielded plugs now for all phono applicaitons. what could you use as a screen? a bit of copper pipe slid over the kle plug? do you have a link to a good screened plug? im guessing furutech ? You're best just using full metal jacket RCA plugs. Whilst I use a few Furutech plugs, their cheapest range are best avoided (not the ones I use I hasten to add!) as they're pretty nasty things. Aluminium barrels are fine as are copper/nickle alloys/tinned steel and to a lesser extent, brass, although that is still preferable to plastic bodied plugs of any sort or price. For many line level applications it's not as important. For phono applications I just think it's best practice. Brand is less important than quality. The only reason I use Furutech as that their plating finish and polish is way better than many others, although the plugs I'm now going to introduce on some of my entry level range as probably equally as good for a lot less. |
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Post by karma67 on Mar 26, 2020 19:43:33 GMT
ironically i have a pair of your venus interconnects on route for me to try. going by the reviews im slightly excited  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 26, 2020 20:04:43 GMT
ironically i have a pair of your venus interconnects on route for me to try. going by the reviews im slightly excited Yes, had a Venus and Pluto here. You'll like them if you try them |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 11:45:33 GMT
The Venus is a cracker and I'd recommend them for any system irrespective of what telephone directory price tags a system might come with, period. Paying more doesn't buy "better" only different. Anyone claiming any different to justify ludicrously priced interconnects is imho using smoke and mirrors marketing for massive profit, pure and simple. That's why I refuse to use or stock cables that are insanely priced compared with the upper stratosphere of cable prices. The Venus plugs have an especially low impedance to ground and cable is twin core, plus the plug return (earth) collars make superb connection with sockets and are plated and polished to the best of standards. Pricey though for the plugs and I don't argue with anyone thinking the plugs are a bit of bling as well, but they are without a doubt some of the best engineered plugs in the business and if someone likes a bit of bling in the mix, they have that too and why not?
Pluto, for the money, I still rate as one of my favourites but the Neptune betters them for phono use, and the new RFC Proteus interconnects (about to be released) are squarely aimed at offering top spec performance at entry level prices (fully screened, ultra low capacitance cable, extremely low noise floor for coax at any price). I aim to market those at under £80 per 1m pair when they are uploaded to the website. I want to do further testing before that as whilst they sound great I want to do some objective as well as subjective testing first. There are several pairs currently in circulation on trial.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 19, 2020 11:55:34 GMT
The Venus is a cracker and I'd recommend them for any system irrespective of what telephone directory price tags a system might come with, period. Paying more doesn't buy "better" only different. Anyone claiming any different to justify ludicrously priced interconnects is imho using smoke and mirrors marketing for massive profit, pure and simple. That's why I refuse to use or stock cables that are insanely priced compared with the upper stratosphere of cable prices. The Venus plugs have an especially low impedance to ground and cable is twin core, plus the plug return (earth) collars make superb connection with sockets and are plated and polished to the best of standards. Pricey though for the plugs and I don't argue with anyone thinking the plugs are a bit of bling as well, but they are without a doubt some of the best engineered plugs in the business and if someone likes a bit of bling in the mix, they have that too and why not? Pluto, for the money, I still rate as one of my favourites but the Neptune betters them for phono use, and the new RFC Proteus interconnects (about to be released) are squarely aimed at offering top spec performance at entry level prices (fully screened, ultra low capacitance cable, extremely low noise floor for coax at any price). I aim to market those at under £80 per 1m pair when they are uploaded to the website. I want to do further testing before that as whilst they sound great I want to do some objective as well as subjective testing first. There are several pairs currently in circulation on trial. I would welcome a trial....pretty exacting conditions here and i would respond in private. Just an offer and i understand if you don't want me involved in the trial period. |
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Post by firebottle on Apr 19, 2020 11:58:19 GMT
Be warned Paul, Oli has bat ears!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 19, 2020 12:45:52 GMT
Actual image  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 12:54:26 GMT
No probs. I'm waiting on the pairs that are already out and will decide after initial feedback to extend the trial period or no. Usually I find it makes little difference to demand but it's good to get feedback even if it's on the use of things like the plugs.
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Post by karma67 on Apr 19, 2020 13:01:49 GMT
The Venus is a cracker and I'd recommend them for any system irrespective of what telephone directory price tags a system might come with, period. Paying more doesn't buy "better" only different. Anyone claiming any different to justify ludicrously priced interconnects is imho using smoke and mirrors marketing for massive profit, pure and simple. That's why I refuse to use or stock cables that are insanely priced compared with the upper stratosphere of cable prices. The Venus plugs have an especially low impedance to ground and cable is twin core, plus the plug return (earth) collars make superb connection with sockets and are plated and polished to the best of standards. Pricey though for the plugs and I don't argue with anyone thinking the plugs are a bit of bling as well, but they are without a doubt some of the best engineered plugs in the business and if someone likes a bit of bling in the mix, they have that too and why not? Pluto, for the money, I still rate as one of my favourites but the Neptune betters them for phono use, and the new RFC Proteus interconnects (about to be released) are squarely aimed at offering top spec performance at entry level prices (fully screened, ultra low capacitance cable, extremely low noise floor for coax at any price). I aim to market those at under £80 per 1m pair when they are uploaded to the website. I want to do further testing before that as whilst they sound great I want to do some objective as well as subjective testing first. There are several pairs currently in circulation on trial. ay that it is,best ive heard to date,very happy with it in my system. |
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Post by hammer on Apr 19, 2020 13:21:45 GMT
Paul do you supply a Tonearm cable?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 9:32:46 GMT
I'll be perfectly honest and say that whilst I can supply and make any tonearm cable to order, I simply cannot compete on price with the mass produced, and very good ones available from the likes of Jelco. If it is RCA to RCA then yes I can and probably can offer a far better one depending on MM or MC use. If 5 pin DIN type to two RCAs I have made plenty of those but they do tend to be a little pricier than you can buy off the shelf as in a few hundred pounds for a good 1.2m one.
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Post by antonio on Jul 24, 2021 4:28:38 GMT
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 24, 2021 7:28:39 GMT
Christ, they are ugly aren't they? |
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Post by misterc on Jul 24, 2021 9:39:36 GMT
Humm.. Think I'll pass on these
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Post by stryder5 on Jul 24, 2021 10:07:09 GMT
Been asked a question this morning about RCA sockets and Plugs. Basically, what i recommend using. Interestingly, I am just looking into what I will put on a tonearm cable I have coming in for repair. The Tonearm is an Audio Technica AT6109 PC-OCC cable. So, I have a few 'Go-To' plugs I use: Top of the tree are these, KLE Absolute Harmony RCAs www.analogueseduction.net/rca-din-hdmi-connectors-adaptors-couplers-and-attenuators/klei-absolute-harmony-rca-plugs-set-of-4.htmlThere are a lot of folks who dont understand the differences in the KLE range, and buy the Silver Harmony, or the "Pure" mistakenly thinking they are Silver. They arent. These are the ones you need if you want proper Silver connections. A super close second are these: Aeco Pure Silver RCAs www.lavricables.com/cables/aeco-arp-4055-pure-silver-rca-plugs-connectors-4pcs-1-set/I love AECO plugs. The grip at the connection lasts longer than with the KLEs but the one thing that lets it down IMO is the return tag for soldering. It's way too close to the plugs Jacket and if you use a decent gauge cable, this can cause bending of that tag, which i dont like. As they are the same price as the KLE Absolute, I see no reason to buy these in reality. Some larger cables do fit in to these though, so it is useful to have them as an option. Next up is these: KLE Classic Harmony kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-harmony-plug/klei-classicharmony-phonorca-plug/These were the forerunner to the Copper and Silver Harmony plugs. They are literally the same except for a change in colour coding (confirmed by the company) They don't appear very often but I am always looking for them and snap them up when they appear. Usually around £45 for a set of 4. Next up are the KLE copper Harmony. kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-harmony-plug/klei-copper-harmony-phonorca-plug/These are what usually go on my Spotfire cables if I haven't got any of the classics. You will notice that the Silver Harmony plugs arent on the list...that's because they arent Silver. The return pin is Silver but the center pin is Copper. It's not blatantly clear from the adverts but it's true. So, what's next? These puppies: eden-audio.com/index.php?id_product=477&controller=productWhen I can't get any of the above, which has happened, I go for these MPS RCA plugs. They are great quality and soldering them is easy. They sound excellent too. One of the things purported by the sellers of such plugs is that eddy currents are present in all-metal construction plugs. I cant prove that, but I can tell you that sonically, I have never taken to the likes of WBT and found the least amount of metal to sound best. Also, a hollow centre pin is essential IMO. It just sounds right to me compared with those using a solid or split pin. These plugs are somewhere between the two extremes for me. They dont sound quite as airy as KLEs or AECOs but they dont sound hard, like I found the WBTs did. They are great for a top quality plug for £40 a set. What about sockets? I only use one type..... www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323853261876They are CMC type from Valab. I've tried the WBT ones but didnt like the way the connection is made to the return pin. It was very easy to not make a good connection. So, not saying in right, just sharing my opinion on what I use. The link for the sockets didn’t work for me Oli . Gary |
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Post by macca on Jul 24, 2021 10:26:11 GMT
It's more than a year old.
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