Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 17, 2022 11:39:30 GMT
30 years for a change of direction.Getting to that in a moment, I realise it's been a year without posting on this thread. Gone is the Dac shown above and in it's place a lovely Holo Audio Spring 3 Level 3. Another addition is the new Bigbottle Ultime phono stage, a real game changer. However the really big change has been to the speaker department. I have had the Quad ESL57's for about 30 years, give or take. Been thinking of trying more conventional speakers and when a pair I liked the look of came up I went to audition. Needless to say the audition went well and I now have a fabulous pair of Theil CS2 2 floorstanders. They are a design by the famous Jim Thiel, 3 way with slow crossover slopes. They sound amazing, more bass weight than the 57's ever had, but very open and precise. From research it seems these are about 30 years old, coincidentally. A very happy bunny! Passive bass radiator thingy on the bottom? They do look nice Alan. How are you finding the different presentation. Ultimately, I still can't live without the detail of stats . . . . but most seem to be able to. You probably need a while to adjust anyway. Great find. Do people really find stats more detailed than "conventional" speakers? I must say that i never have. I have always found them to be a bit....well, imprecise. I have heard many speakers of conventional designs that i would pick for detail over any Electrostatic i have heard (Quads, Maggies etc) What i would say is that stats have been very open sounding....that isnt something i can say for a lot of box speakers.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Feb 17, 2022 11:47:16 GMT
Thanks Martin and Bruce Dave the 57's are staying exactly where they are, I've no where else to put them One needs a bit of maintenance in fact, so it might get done now.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Feb 17, 2022 11:47:52 GMT
I do not find stats particuraly detailed at all, even the big logan @60k or the Wisdom's what they do achieve (If correctly set up) a large holographc 'hear through' stage that quite a few guys really enjoy. For myself more detail than quality traditional design er.. no, they way they present they're upper freqeuncy extension well that can be different, but more detailed no.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,616
|
Post by optical on Feb 17, 2022 11:48:39 GMT
Passive bass radiator thingy on the bottom? They do look nice Alan. How are you finding the different presentation. Ultimately, I still can't live without the detail of stats . . . . but most seem to be able to. You probably need a while to adjust anyway. Great find. Do people really find stats more detailed than "conventional" speakers? I must say that i never have. I have always found them to be a bit....well, imprecise. I have heard many speakers of conventional designs that i would pick for detail over any Electrostatic i have heard (Quads, Maggies etc) What i would say is that stats have been very open sounding....that isnt something i can say for a lot of box speakers. Maybe that's what it is, not necessarily 'more' detail as such but a huge difference in the way that detail is projected into the room. Yes there are speakers that do incisive detail (or indeed supertweeters etc) but for me it's the way it's portrayed by panels, conventional tweeters being a little more veiled and slightly less natural. Maybe I haven't heard any really high end ones. It's easier to absorb the detail on offer with panel speakers, and that's what my brain likes and is addicted to.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 17, 2022 11:51:51 GMT
Do people really find stats more detailed than "conventional" speakers? I must say that i never have. I have always found them to be a bit....well, imprecise. I have heard many speakers of conventional designs that i would pick for detail over any Electrostatic i have heard (Quads, Maggies etc) What i would say is that stats have been very open sounding....that isnt something i can say for a lot of box speakers. Maybe that's what it is, not necessarily 'more' detail as such but a huge difference in the way that detail is projected into the room. Yes there are speakers that do incisive detail (or indeed supertweeters etc) but for me it's the way it's portrayed by panels, conventional tweeters being a little more veiled and slightly less natural. Maybe I haven't heard any really high end ones. It's easier to absorb the detail on offer with panel speakers, and that's what my brain likes and is addicted to. I wondered if we were using different descriptions whilst talking about the same type of thing. Just wanted to check before I went wading in, knee deep lol
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,616
|
Post by optical on Feb 17, 2022 11:53:54 GMT
I do not find stats particuraly detailed at all, even the big logan @60k or the Wisdom's what they do achieve (If correctly set up) a large holographc 'hear through' stage that quite affew guys really enjoy. For myself moe detail than qyality traditional design er.. no, they way they present they're upper freqeuncy extension well that can be different, but more deatiled no. Yeah, that sums it up a bit better for me. So I'll reform my statement by saying "I can't live without detail *presentation* of stats"
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Feb 17, 2022 14:42:45 GMT
Shock horror Alan - you have made a big change there and I am sure they will sound great. Nice decent sized bass units and Theil are a quality company and speaker manufacturer. Hope the bass is not too much for you after moving from the 57's!
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 17, 2022 16:36:38 GMT
Interesting that the back panel says they sound best with the grills in place.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Feb 19, 2022 8:25:22 GMT
Now the Neurochrome is driving the new Thiels I though I would connect the OuTLaw OTL to the Quad 57's. I had forgotten just how good this sounds, OTL and electrostatics are a match made in heaven.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,616
|
Post by optical on Feb 19, 2022 9:09:51 GMT
Now the Neurochrome is driving the new Thiels I though I would connect the OuTLaw OTL to the Quad 57's. I had forgotten just how good this sounds, OTL and electrostatics are a match made in heaven. I've had the chance to hear this combo and it is a very intimate experience indeed. Overall I think I still preferred the NC but this combo was certainly a sound I could more than live with! So you're a two system man now Alan! How's the new totem poles floating your boat?!
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Feb 19, 2022 9:35:29 GMT
The Thiels make a stunning sound. We have been listening to more music since they arrived, that says something.
The overall difference in presentation is very interesting. It's as if the resolution has gone up, I know that is a surprising thing to say coming from stats. I'm guessing one of the differences is actually down to the 57's being dipole speakers and the rear radiation adding to the 'wavefront' if I can use that word. The Thiels really give sense to having the best transparency in the supporting kit. Most CD's now sound stunning, you can really tell the ones that haven't been recorded well.
Having said that the performance of the BBu is exquisite. Listening to Queen's greatest hits, I have always though this wasn't the best recording, perhaps lacking a bit of dynamism. I can now hear the different ambiance around the individual elements making up each track, vocals in particular.
Amazing.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Feb 19, 2022 10:41:00 GMT
I've said for years you can't beat a pair of good three-way loudspeakers. I know people bang on about 'box bass' and 'complex crossovers' but when it's done properly there's no drawbacks.
Always pains me to see people cocking about in the margins when all they need to do is get a better pair of speakers and the sound quality will jump up massively (not talking about anyone specifically but just in general reading the various forums).
Many speakers are complete tat, even the expensive ones. But you can't tell anyone anything in this game.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,616
|
Post by optical on Feb 19, 2022 13:24:31 GMT
I've said for years you can't beat a pair of good three-way loudspeakers. I know people bang on about 'box bass' and 'complex crossovers' but when it's done properly there's no drawbacks. Always pains me to see people cocking about in the margins when all they need to do is get a better pair of speakers and the sound quality will jump up massively (not talking about anyone specifically but just in general reading the various forums). Many speakers are complete tat, even the expensive ones. But you can't tell anyone anything in this game. Much sense in this post Martin. I fundamentally agree but I'm addicted to panel speaker presentation.... The Logan's are a good compromise as they have a proper driver (or two) doing the LF below 250hz. Glad to hear you aren't missing anything Alan (so far!) and have in fact gained some enjoyment from the new setup. Great result all round. Solid, extended LF has become more important to me as my hifi has progressed, I suspect that going back to my various sets of Quads now might be a bit underwhelming, even with the subs implemented, could be wrong though.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Feb 19, 2022 13:40:40 GMT
I've said for years you can't beat a pair of good three-way loudspeakers. I know people bang on about 'box bass' and 'complex crossovers' but when it's done properly there's no drawbacks. Always pains me to see people cocking about in the margins when all they need to do is get a better pair of speakers and the sound quality will jump up massively (not talking about anyone specifically but just in general reading the various forums). Many speakers are complete tat, even the expensive ones. But you can't tell anyone anything in this game. Much sense in this post Martin. I fundamentally agree but I'm addicted to panel speaker presentation.... The Logan's are a good compromise as they have a proper driver (or two) doing the LF below 250hz. Glad to hear you aren't missing anything Alan (so far!) and have in fact gained some enjoyment from the new setup. Great result all round. Solid, extended LF has become more important to me as my hifi has progressed, I suspect that going back to my various sets of Quads now might be a bit underwhelming, even with the subs implemented, could be wrong though. I got nothing against panels but the good ones are so expensive (I know you can still get the QUAD ESL 'cheap' but they always need heavy restoration which is a nightmare job once you look into it). They one and only thing I would like myself is another octave of bass depth. Was just thinking about that earlier on.
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Feb 19, 2022 13:51:40 GMT
Speakers/room, everything else is a massively distant second place.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 19, 2022 15:48:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Feb 19, 2022 16:20:43 GMT
Thanks for the great system photos, saves me the trouble. (Better camera too)
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 19, 2022 16:21:54 GMT
Thanks for the great system photos, saves me the trouble. (Better camera too) 👍 I'll put some words up later. Just watching the football
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Feb 19, 2022 18:46:47 GMT
Isn't it great when your other (better) half approves of and enjoys your hi-fi purchases?
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Feb 19, 2022 18:52:11 GMT
Isn't it great when your other (better) half approves of and enjoys your hi-fi purchases? I rely on my other half not only to approve but also to help me evaluate hi-fi purchases.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 19, 2022 20:53:14 GMT
Spent some time at Alan's today as I had to pick up a heat sink. It also gave me a great excuse to get a listen to his new Theils.
Alan's system is not quite as familiar to me as it once was. The addition of the Mutec, the Holo Spring 3, and now the Theils means it's quite alien. We started off with a few of my favourite test tracks. First up was Duke Ellington - Black & Tan Fantasy.
This is a great track to highlight any issues in the HF. The trumpets really generate some pitchy notes and as it played I did detect a little hardness/glint in the HF. However, it was a particular type of hardness that I have long associated with USB. Alan's Zen Mini is USB only, so this did seem to make sense to me. I will take my Aria round at some point and check this out.
We then played Marlon Williams - When I was a young girl.
The guitar in particular did seem to sound very authentic, bar a little extra meat on the bone compared to when I play it in my system. Again, this is not inconsistent with what we found when we compared the Soekris to the Holo at my house.
Next up, some Gary Moore - Song for Donna.
The Theils made a good fist of this track. Providing some excellent dynamics and precision on the drums. The Theils handled this track very well. Alan commenting that the vocals were quite receded. He is right. They are in my system too.
We let the rest of the album play out and in truth, I enjoyed it a lot.
We played a fair bit of material, and the Theils do not cling to the sound they are making. Everything is in the ether and free to form in the space between them. That is the sign of a good speaker.
Overall, the Theils do not entirely depart from the Quad way of delivering music. They are easy to listen too, and the music does seem to be free, something the Quads do very well. That is where the comparison stops for me. The Theils walk all over the Quads for resolution, detail, dynamics, imaging and soundstage. In fact, in every aspect I could think of, they are better.
The other thing that came to mind was the way they sounded different on all the tracks we played. To me, that is another indicator of a good speaker. I am confident in saying the Theils are quite transparent and do an excellent job of disappearing.
I like them, and Alan's system sounded far better today than it has at any other time I have visited, IMO.
Well done Alan, good purchase!
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Apr 15, 2022 14:51:06 GMT
MUTEC mods. Specifically replacing the switch mode psu with a linear. I removed the top to measure the space and concluded I could build a linear psu that fitted inside the case. I took a picture of the standard smps in situ but it is on the cameras internal memory and I can't find a suitable lead to access it. Hey ho it's just a single output smps. Tony mentioned that it was a fiddly task to do and I thought naah, it will be easy. The fiddly bit: Removing (and ultimately replacing) all these nuts and washers from the 8 tightly spaced BNC sockets on the rear is a PITA. They have to come off to enable the pcb to be removed. The replacement psu is a small 10VA toroidal transformer fed though a simple mains filter pinched from a cheap and cheerful(?) Chinese smps, then standard bridge into a low noise 5V regulator. The regulator is mounted on the dividing screen which is steel, so not the best heat conductor. I have mounted a small additional heatsink to assist in cooling: After the fiddle of putting the nuts back on the BNC's it was re-iserted in the system to test. A few CD tracks were chosen using the CD transport. Whoa! Both of our chins hit the floor. Better depth, clarity and width. This from just CD redbook 16/44.1. Playing further CD's reveals some details I haven't heard before! Whoa this is crazy good. Digital just got good again. The drawback is it is now showing up the limitations of the Innuos Zen Audio Server.
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Apr 15, 2022 15:24:21 GMT
MUTEC mods. Specifically replacing the switch mode psu with a linear. I removed the top to measure the space and concluded I could build a linear psu that fitted inside the case. I took a picture of the standard smps in situ but it is on the cameras internal memory and I can't find a suitable lead to access it. Hey ho it's just a single output smps. Tony mentioned that it was a fiddly task to do and I thought naah, it will be easy. The fiddly bit: Removing (and ultimately replacing) all these nuts and washers from the 8 tightly spaced BNC sockets on the rear is a PITA. They have to come off to enable the pcb to be removed. The replacement psu is a small 10VA toroidal transformer fed though a simple mains filter pinched from a cheap and cheerful(?) Chinese smps, then standard bridge into a low noise 5V regulator. The regulator is mounted on the dividing screen which is steel, so not the best heat conductor. I have mounted a small additional heatsink to assist in cooling: After the fiddle of putting the nuts back on the BNC's it was re-iserted in the system to test. A few CD tracks were chosen using the CD transport. Whoa! Both of our chins hit the floor. Better depth, clarity and width. This from just CD redbook 16/44.1. Playing further CD's reveals some details I haven't heard before! Whoa this is crazy good. Digital just got good again. The drawback is it is now showing up the limitations of the Innuos Zen Audio Server.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Apr 15, 2022 15:25:20 GMT
MUTEC mods. Specifically replacing the switch mode psu with a linear. I removed the top to measure the space and concluded I could build a linear psu that fitted inside the case. I took a picture of the standard smps in situ but it is on the cameras internal memory and I can't find a suitable lead to access it. Hey ho it's just a single output smps. Tony mentioned that it was a fiddly task to do and I thought naah, it will be easy. The fiddly bit: Removing (and ultimately replacing) all these nuts and washers from the 8 tightly spaced BNC sockets on the rear is a PITA. They have to come off to enable the pcb to be removed. The replacement psu is a small 10VA toroidal transformer fed though a simple mains filter pinched from a cheap and cheerful(?) Chinese smps, then standard bridge into a low noise 5V regulator. The regulator is mounted on the dividing screen which is steel, so not the best heat conductor. I have mounted a small additional heatsink to assist in cooling: After the fiddle of putting the nuts back on the BNC's it was re-iserted in the system to test. A few CD tracks were chosen using the CD transport. Whoa! Both of our chins hit the floor. Better depth, clarity and width. This from just CD redbook 16/44.1. Playing further CD's reveals some details I haven't heard before! Whoa this is crazy good. Digital just got good again. The drawback is it is now showing up the limitations of the Innuos Zen Audio Server. Fantastic result Al. I cannot wait to get my LPSU in place. Had a feeling this could happen.....poor Innuos ....... I have a recommendation.......
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Apr 15, 2022 15:38:50 GMT
Seriously well done Alan, don't know how you have the patience to do such a fiddly job.
|
|
|
Post by stryder5 on Apr 15, 2022 16:06:25 GMT
Spent some time at Alan's today as I had to pick up a heat sink. It also gave me a great excuse to get a listen to his new Theils. Alan's system is not quite as familiar to me as it once was. The addition of the Mutec, the Holo Spring 3, and now the Theils means it's quite alien. We started off with a few of my favourite test tracks. First up was Duke Ellington - Black & Tan Fantasy. This is a great track to highlight any issues in the HF. The trumpets really generate some pitchy notes and as it played I did detect a little hardness/glint in the HF. However, it was a particular type of hardness that I have long associated with USB. Alan's Zen Mini is USB only, so this did seem to make sense to me. I will take my Aria round at some point and check this out. We then played Marlon Williams - When I was a young girl. The guitar in particular did seem to sound very authentic, bar a little extra meat on the bone compared to when I play it in my system. Again, this is not inconsistent with what we found when we compared the Soekris to the Holo at my house. Next up, some Gary Moore - Song for Donna. The Theils made a good fist of this track. Providing some excellent dynamics and precision on the drums. The Theils handled this track very well. Alan commenting that the vocals were quite receded. He is right. They are in my system too. We let the rest of the album play out and in truth, I enjoyed it a lot. We played a fair bit of material, and the Theils do not cling to the sound they are making. Everything is in the ether and free to form in the space between them. That is the sign of a good speaker. Overall, the Theils do not entirely depart from the Quad way of delivering music. They are easy to listen too, and the music does seem to be free, something the Quads do very well. That is where the comparison stops for me. The Theils walk all over the Quads for resolution, detail, dynamics, imaging and soundstage. In fact, in every aspect I could think of, they are better. The other thing that came to mind was the way they sounded different on all the tracks we played. To me, that is another indicator of a good speaker. I am confident in saying the Theils are quite transparent and do an excellent job of disappearing. I like them, and Alan's system sounded far better today than it has at any other time I have visited, IMO. Well done Alan, good purchase!
|
|
|
Post by stryder5 on Apr 15, 2022 16:07:13 GMT
Was this with knackered tweeters?
your review above ?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Apr 15, 2022 16:11:59 GMT
Was this with knackered tweeters? your review above ? Yes, Note the "Receded vocals" "Quad like presentation" and other comments in regard to how I describe the listening. I did comment to Alan that I felt there was a veil and that they rolled off....just like the Quads do.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Apr 15, 2022 17:58:22 GMT
Alan, those back panel washers are fiddly to say least have performed this at least 70 times now its still one of time consuming case removals I do
Neat use of space and installation. Not seen any upgrades like this on an mc3 before.
I remove the smps and the space left is enough for a Tony dc filtration circuit.
Dc is fully of board but I ike the use of space Alan nice job
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Apr 20, 2022 10:51:23 GMT
Now the Mutec is more open I've taken the digital output from the Pure DAB tuner through it, with a nice uplift in audio quality.
When I tried this previously there wasn't much difference so a good outcome.
|
|