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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 14:59:21 GMT
Just recently picked up (locally) a nice pair of ES11 with target stands. They sound really decent. Nice wide sound-staging and good deep bass.
Not a bad speaker!
S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 15:32:48 GMT
Just recently picked up (locally) a nice pair of ES11 with target stands. They sound really decent. Nice wide sound-staging and good deep bass. Not a bad speaker! S. Still a speaker I have yet to hear or even see in the flesh. My mate, Ricky, has had a few pairs but he gets rid of stuff so quickly I never managed to grab a listen. I do remember at the time, the bass units used to blow quite easily. They were a FOTM at Audiophile magazine and a few reviewers used them and blew them.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 15:55:58 GMT
DSJR, are the 11's an easy load? I know they almost have a lack of crossover.
S.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 17:49:01 GMT
Yep, they have a resistor across the tweeter in addition to the series cap, which could usefully be upgraded here to a poly type if not done already...
I found them a little too restrained after the ES14's, but that's not a bad thing at all and a livelier amp and modern digital source would do them proud I think. I'd suggest keeping them away from walls a bit and get them as high as possible while keeping the tweeter at roughly ear level.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 18:07:04 GMT
Ta Dave. Do ES11's improve with better amplification? When I say better, more power etc.
S.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 18:08:50 GMT
YES!!!
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Post by pauld on May 11, 2018 19:37:21 GMT
The ES11’s are good but really need their original stands to sound anywhere near their best. I always preferred the ES14’s (with the bungs out)
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 20:03:51 GMT
The seller dropped the ES11 over a few days ago. Before parting with my money, we wired up the ES11 just to quickly test them. Left them playing for 10 min.
Now maybe the seller could have just been ''blue-pilling'' me with pleasant lies. But he had a slight look of regret on his face and then grinned at me and said ''oh, wish I hadn't sell these now'' Carries on saying the ES11 are sounding better than before. I did give the seller a chance to take the ES11 back home. But then afterwards usual wife story came out....blah, blah, blah!
The transaction was fun and the seller was decent.
Anyway, I'll stick with the ES11 for a while. If I ever spot a decent looking pair of ES14 (Locally) I'll snap them up.
S.
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Post by dsjr on May 11, 2018 20:16:21 GMT
Shane, the 'wife story' is very real and please be thankful you don't apparently have it! I sold a wonderful pair of active studio grade monitors to marry my better half and help combine two small houses into one and I still miss them more than twenty years on..
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 20:28:13 GMT
Thanks God my wife is as mad on the gear as me. She has a real flat earth liking though. But then I guess I do too in many ways.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 20:28:49 GMT
The seller dropped the ES11 over a few days ago. Before parting with my money, we wired up the ES11 just to quickly test them. Left them playing for 10 min. Now maybe the seller could have just been ''blue-pilling'' me with pleasant lies. But he had a slight look of regret on his face and then grinned at me and said ''oh, wish I hadn't sell these now'' Carries on saying the ES11 are sounding better than before. I did give the seller a chance to take the ES11 back home. But then afterwards usual wife story came out....blah, blah, blah! The transaction was fun and the seller was decent. Anyway, I'll stick with the ES11 for a while. If I ever spot a decent looking pair of ES14 (Locally) I'll snap them up. S. ES11s should be an easy sell if you ever wanted to move them.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 20:39:36 GMT
Thanks God my wife is as mad on the gear as me. She has a real flat earth liking though. But then I guess I do too in many ways. Does she have her own system at the moment? If not, will she attempt on building one? S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 21:28:52 GMT
Thanks God my wife is as mad on the gear as me. She has a real flat earth liking though. But then I guess I do too in many ways. Does she have her own system at the moment? If not, will she attempt on building one? S. She usually has a Naim/Linn/Rega system but with this apartment we have just shared a bedroom system and a living room one. The next place has much more space so it will be back to flat earth. Probably something like a planar 3 or Xerxes and mk1 Planet with a 62/140 and Elas or SBLs, might be Kans though because she likes them a lot. Unusually for her, she loves the Sonneteers, so that's another possibility. There's nothing flat earth about them but they are just so lovely to put on and listen to. They just seem to have a serene energy about them. So easy on the eye too.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 21:40:09 GMT
So she likes a 'forward' kind of sound. Judging by the description above.
S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 11, 2018 22:59:37 GMT
So she likes a 'forward' kind of sound. Judging by the description above. S. Yep, it's adrenalin all the way. But then she likes Sonneteer and that puzzles me. There's something about their kit,,especially the Campion that just gets under the skin long term. It's been a real grower.
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 8:58:09 GMT
Does she have her own system at the moment? If not, will she attempt on building one? S. She usually has a Naim/Linn/Rega system but with this apartment we have just shared a bedroom system and a living room one. The next place has much more space so it will be back to flat earth. Probably something like a planar 3 or Xerxes and mk1 Planet with a 62/140 and Elas or SBLs, might be Kans though because she likes them a lot. Sounds like sonic hell to me... SBL's need a well damped room and POWER. A 140 will simply fizzle, glare and spit it's way through. Elacs have metal cone issues I seem to recall (cuppy-cold and hard toned from memory).
Go and hear a variety of acoustic music live. Anything from full scale orchestras to an intimate local jazz band at a local pub if you have such things. You'll then realise how 'chrome plated' and 'PA like' most of the 80's UK 'Flat Earth' stuff really was. As well as hearing a turntable half the price of an LP12/Ittok totally annihilate it in all the 'tune dem' ways, I went to a pub not far from my family seat in Nth Wales and even before the beer had begun to work, the jazz trio blew me away. My HiFi life changed that year forever and Linn, Naim and associated speakers just didn't cut it at all any more...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 12, 2018 9:27:12 GMT
It's Rega Elas she likes not Elacs Have you ever tried SBLs with valves, Dave?, With SS amps I would agree about them needing power, but they have a whole other side to them that you would never expect when paired with valves. I paired my first SBLs with a 140 then a 160 and finally a 250, which really made them sing with my (then) CDI. Later pairs have been run mainly with various Exposure IVs. At one point, happened to have an LK1/LK2 at the same time as an Exposure 3/4 and Naim Preamp/PSU and 250. The Naims finished 3rd with the SBLs when fronted by a Naim CDI and a Xerxes. I was surprised I preferred the Linns, but they were just that bit cleaner and more precise. The Exposures walked it though and were a clear winner. All 3 sounded good to me but the comparison really brought home the differences. Have you ever heard DBLs, Dave. So far my only "exposure" to them has been on YouTube vids. I will absolutely have to change that.
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 10:06:18 GMT
Valve amps have a nasty bit or iron and hundreds of feet of wiring in the signal path - it's called an output transformer! Damping factor usually goes to hell with the majority of these amps and the frequency response of a typically crossovered two way speaker is greatly altered as well as the crossover slopes themselves, hence some of this 'valve sound' bullshit!
SBL's have a second cavity already woofing slightly after the initial bass impact. heard at it's worst in Credo's and Intro's, it's still there in SBL's but much contained. the worst part of SBL's is the crossover, which slugs the mids a bit and makes highs sound a bit chrome plated. Going active sharpens the tweeter (I needed to turn it down in level slightly) but the bass and mids are rather better, midrange especially.
The best I heard SBL's passive was with an Arcam FMJ pre and power amp (both needed careful support for some reason for best 'musicality,' I don't know why...) and also the large Meridian 557 which was a really good power amp I recall.
I heard many SSSSS BEEEEE ELLLLLssssss in my time and conventionally Naim driven, the treble sssssounded off like a chrome plated buzz saw - strings just don't sound that way, sorry! if I were to experiment with a pair (and I've been tempted by the occasional walnut pair I've seen), I'd need to definitely have the better later bass drivers and I'd replace the ghastly Scan squeaker with something better of similar sensitivity - the Scan unit has a nasssssty resonance at 9khz clearly measurable too and even the damped version that Spendor and pro-Ac used had a 'whistle' up there when I could hear clearly at those frequencies.
I suppose I traded the chrome plated strings for dirty Vifa reproduced ones in the ATC's I had, but the big actives I owned were actually benign up top although the 20 ASL pros I had until ten years ago could be acidic and gritty. Don't get me wrong, I like sparkle, but not a distorted one. The HF1300's in my Spendors are very good indeed, but rather useless today as their 'bandwiddth' is so limited, needing a super tweeter to assist the perception of 'air' at the very top.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 12, 2018 11:33:59 GMT
Scanspeak D2008 is one of my fave tweeters I have enjoyed it in Naim IBL, SBL, Kan, Sara, Isobarik, early Proac Tablette, Rega Ela and a few others. There are other tweeters that I like too. The Audax fabric dome used by Spica is a beauty and the one Recommended to me for Cube restoration is nice too. I forget it's model, but it's not the one used in current Cubes. I'll see if I can find details.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 12, 2018 11:39:19 GMT
Found it. Vifa D27 TG.
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 12:23:04 GMT
Scanspeak D2008 is one of my fave tweeters I have enjoyed it in Naim IBL, SBL, Kan, Sara, Isobarik, early Proac Tablette, Rega Ela and a few others. There are other tweeters that I like too. The Audax fabric dome used by Spica is a beauty and the one Recommended to me for Cube restoration is nice too. I forget it's model, but it's not the one used in current Cubes. I'll see if I can find details.
But that Scan tweeter has terrible resonances at 9khz which really are audible and I've heard it in all the speakers you mention - the last sloping-baffle Rega Ela's were by far the worst of all as this one went spitty and coarse as well for some reason! Spendor and Pro-Ac later on, used a ferro-fluid version with a foamy cushion on the front plate and this version takes the chrome plating down to a 'whistle.'.. Even the lush Spendor SP2/3's a pal has still show it.
The version of the Visaton tweeter NVA use in the Cubes is in a different plane of existence in my opinion and only sparkles when called upon to The lightly 'NVA' doped Chinese one found for the Cubettes isn't bad at all, but isn't as 'delicate' as the more expensive Visaton he uses.
The large-dome Scan tweeter was well rated twenty years ago but today, the latest ring-radiators (best ones not cheap) take high frequency reproduction to a newer and higher level I think and tend to make previous dome types sound slightly 'dirty' in comparison. Kans, Saras and 'Briks need to sort the Bextrene KEF drivers out first though, 'cos if you saw what a 'naked' B110 or B200 does before the crossover tames it, you'd be very surprised you get any music out of them at all - same for most metal cones which sound off like a tin can in the mid treble range if left to their own devices... Linn added PVA solutions to the B110 and B200's to try to tame them further, but it was pissing in the wind really and the complex crossover in the LS3/5A used to add a tuned circuit to try to flatten the B110 response which Linn never did.
Hell, I need a few pints of bitter (or even whisky ) to discuss all this as I remember it.
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Post by Bigman80 on May 12, 2018 12:30:13 GMT
I guess I either don't hear the peak, or it doesn't bother me Maybe I actually like the effect? I think the latter is probably most likely and also probably why others have liked it too. I also think I'm not that sensitive to frequency response and there are places where I like it better when it's clearly not flat. Upper bass boost seems to be a "like" for me. But then there's another side to me that things like Sonneteer tune into. I think that's why I sometimes run 2 systems. Most obvious when I ran a Rock/Xenon/Dynavector with Glastonburys in one room and an LP12/Ekos/OC9/Intek (or Nait) and Kans in another.
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 12:33:03 GMT
I don't know the Vifa tweeter as currently made. As supplied back then, it came with a plastic front plate as in the Heybrook HB1 (concentric grooves on the front plate) and I was told ATC replaced the plate with their own cast one. My own 100A's sounded smooth and with no hf spit whatsoever, but my 20ASL pro's didn't at all. The later SL ATC's had an upper mid response 'bump' which took the smoothness away (50ASL's were criticised by domestic owners for sounding harsh all of a sudden when before they looked and sounded like BC1's on steroids ). the dear friend who bought my 100A's had the SL bass units fitted and made similar comments, although we'd moved away by this time and I never heard them after - he's passed on now and his widow moved I know not where... ATC changed tweeter twice, the second one couldn't be retro-fitted but the current one can and is reported to be rather better than any previous ones they used. The tough, larger dome tweeter Audax made, has been resurrected and one result is the BBC LS5/9 has come back. My 5/9's can sound one note and stark in the highs but the new version is supposedly better behaved, albeit rolling off over 14k or so.
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 12:35:08 GMT
With vinyl, you won't notice it as much as the hf dynamics of vinyl sources aren't great. With master analogue or digital sources, it can be heard and one consequence of Rega digital sources being justifiably popular, their current RX speakers are much better integrated and still full of life
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 12, 2018 12:39:09 GMT
I really need to hear some more modern Rega stuff. As I buy almost exclusively used, I tend to be a few years behind in hearing what's on offer. Rega are still pretty affordable today and that makes me have a lot of time for them. Still one of the "good guys" AFAIC
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 12:47:22 GMT
+1
The RS3's have a delightful midrange but the spiky top put me off. the current RX3's weigh twice as much (it seems), have a lightly doped mid driver and an almost sweet tweeter. I heard them last at the Signals 'Audio East' show last November and I have to say the sound of the complete Rega system (Planar 6/Ania/Fono MC/Brio R) was in a better musical world to any of the Naim and Chord amp based stereo's on dem there (the expensive NEATs were absolutely dire and the Focal Kanta's droned boringly I thought!)
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Post by pauld on May 12, 2018 14:44:17 GMT
Yeah, the latest Focal Kanta and their cheaper ranges have been voiced for Naim so are boring to counter the brighter sound of Naim amps. Although the Sopra’s aren’t bad. If you want to hear proper Focal, you’ve got to hear the Electra or Utopia ranges.
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Post by dsjr on May 12, 2018 15:37:36 GMT
Current Naims don't sound anthing like older ones. To me, they just sound grey and bland these days and they sell on past glories.
I did hear some Utopias once and they were everything I feel wrong with so called top end gear. All sound and no music. I may go on about the Scan tweeter in another thread, but at least there was some FUN in the music coming out.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 19:45:36 GMT
I know a chap down the road who uses a walnut pair of SBL's. Heard them last year. Good punchy sound. Can play loud too.
S.
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Post by Bigman80 on May 12, 2018 20:22:03 GMT
I know a chap down the road who uses a walnut pair of SBL's. Heard them last year. Good punchy sound. Can play loud too. S. Yes they certainly can. Tight as a duck's backside was how Malcolm Steward described them!
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