Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 15:20:45 GMT
Not something I’ve really dabbled,with, so I’m hoping to hear more from others. Anyone tried any of the following and found it beneficial? What’s best bang for buck. Anything a waste of time and money?
1. Mains rewire and or new sockets 2, Specialist plugs or sockets 3. Balances Mains 4. Regeneration 5. Dedicated radial 6. Sticking an earth spike in the ground. 7. Specialist Mains cables or blocks 8. Anything else.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Mains
Jul 18, 2018 16:09:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 16:09:45 GMT
Not something I’ve really dabbled,with, so I’m hoping to hear more from others. Anyone tried any of the following and found it beneficial? What’s best bang for buck. Anything a waste of time and money? 1. Mains rewire and or new sockets 2, Specialist plugs or sockets 3. Balances Mains 4. Regeneration 5. Dedicated radial 6. Sticking an earth spike in the ground. 7. Specialist Mains cables or blocks 8. Anything else. Of those I’ve tried in my own home in order of impact: 1. Balanced mains. 2. Regeneration. 3. D.C. filter 4. Specialist cables, dedicated radial, switchleas sockets. Impact may depend on the mains and wiring one has in the first place of course.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 16:17:39 GMT
Cheers, Ben.
Sounds like you’ve done quite a bit of experimenting.
I’m not as clued up as many but I have heard that balanced mains works in some situations and not in others. Is there any way of predicting whether it will help.
For instance, I have continental radial mains circuits, only about 6 years old with no hum or noise and no deterioration at any time of day. No industry anywhere near me either. Would these factors make it less likely for me to benefit?
I also don’t really understand DC blockers but would the same lack of mains issues make it less likely that I’d get a decent result?
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jul 18, 2018 17:37:09 GMT
Back in the bad old Naim days, anything mains related could often be heard - and looking back, it wasn't because the Naim amps were so good they'd reproduce it - which was the mantra we were fed back then! the mains transformers were so 'good' they'd reproduce the distortion coming in on the mains too - like eff!!!!! bad winding is my reasoning behind it*
We were told to have dedicated spurs and so on purely for the stereo set. I believe a lot of the time we conned ourselves with some of this, but a few years living in Luton showed how awful the mains can be (Luton was a Sh#t-hole for a heck of a lot of reasons and the twenty years since we left there hasn't changed that opinion). What helped in my case (in the days before BMU's at home) were clip-on cable ferrites and high-current mains filters for the digital sources which for me were a consistent improvement and although our mains here is far better and consistent, I still use them to no detriment.
One thing that did help the workroom system is the BMU. I tried it as a sceptic (it was the same unit Macca tried), found I missed it when it was taken out, so I bought it and there it remains. Mine hums a bit at different times of day, but current ones had the transformer windings changed a little and these are quiet pretty much all the time.
*I had a Naim CB era 160 which sounded off like a buzz-saw where the next one off the line serial number wise was all but silent. I had big valve amps, a Nakamichi PA5mk2 in the same room later on and these were silent as well! Coming more up to date, Maccas Krell with a large toroid? was silent all the time, even when hot when I used it here...
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2018 18:32:38 GMT
Funny you should mention the CB 160. I had one and sold it, only for the buyer to reporr it had arrived damaged and buzzing loudly. I got it back and it was as silent as ever. Took it to a mate’s and it was still silent. Sold it again with no quibbles. I later read of a few people suffering from buzzing 160s due to their mains. Seems it’s a common issue depending on where you live. A mini BMU might be more interesting to me. The normal one is fugly IMO. Plugs sticking out the top and wires shooting off in different directions is something I couldn’t live with. I’m with Jammy on ugly wires. It’s the reason I prefer integrated amps, the reason I ditched the Hera for my Iso and the reason I ditched my two box DPA DACs. In fact it’s the reason I don’t do transports and DACs anymore.
I couldn’t live with one of those industrial tin box jobs from Airlink either. DIY would be a possibiiity but it’s not sufficiently interesting to me tbh,
|
|
|
Post by pauld on Jul 18, 2018 21:31:28 GMT
So far I have done the following.
1. Replaced switched with unswitched socket. 2. Related unswitched socket with a better quality one. 3. Replaced standard power cord with an MCRU No. 9 for the Amplifier. 4. Replaced standard power cord with an MCRU Ultimare for the CD Transport. 5. Added a 6 way TCI extension lead, all components other than the Amplifier plugged into these. 6. Removed the Amplifer from the extension cable and plugged back into the main socket
All of these changes have made incremental improvements in my opinion.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 3:38:54 GMT
It’s another subject where I’d be Ok with spending tens of pounds, but I would need some convincing to get into 3 figures for anything mains related. I might change my tune if I heard something important in terms of improvement. So far I’ve heard nothing I couldn’t live without and nothing I could be sure wasn’t psychological or perceptual.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Mains
Jul 19, 2018 6:57:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 6:57:23 GMT
Cheers, Ben. Sounds like you’ve done quite a bit of experimenting. I’m not as clued up as many but I have heard that balanced mains works in some situations and not in others. Is there any way of predicting whether it will help. For instance, I have continental radial mains circuits, only about 6 years old with no hum or noise and no deterioration at any time of day. No industry anywhere near me either. Would these factors make it less likely for me to benefit? I also don’t really understand DC blockers but would the same lack of mains issues make it less likely that I’d get a decent result? I don’t know, but it does seem likely. Maybe your mains is already good. Unfortunately my mains is a disaster area. Plug in any toroid and suddenly I’m living under the Heathrow flight path. DC blockers have proved the cheapest way to sort the hum. And, unexpectedly seemed to improve sound too. I just buy a reasonably priced circuit (I think about £25), stick it in a small wooden box and insert it into an IEC lead.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 7:06:01 GMT
Some parts of the U.K. seem to have very bad mains. It’s a pity the supply companies aren’t held to a tighter standard and compensation paid/fines levied for failures. I’ve heard of people with big variances in voltage from the specified level too.
|
|
|
Post by nonuffin on Jul 19, 2018 7:24:00 GMT
I run everything through one of these things
Not bad value at under £100 and most importantly for me, it does not curtail the dynamics.
The voltage readout also is an eye opener how much the mains voltage rides up and down where I live.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jul 19, 2018 7:31:51 GMT
Never had any problems with mains in the 11 different residences I've had hi-fi in. Never had a piece of equipment that had a buzzing traffo except for an AV amp I got as part of a job lot. That wasn't mechanical buzzing but 50Hz hum through the speakers. Gave it to a mate who fixed it with no bother.
Maybe I've just been lucky?
As DSJR says I did have a loan of a BMU. It put a weird echo type effect on the bass and supressed dynamics a bit. Sound was better with it removed. maybe I am just unlucky here as everyone else seems to have a 'couldn't imagine living without it' experience.
I have one fancy mains cable, bought used, it doesn't do anything a generic cable doesn't, regardless if what it is powering.
I did a back-to-back test of various extension blocks, I fancied I could hear small differences although this was quite possibly imagination. To settle any doubts I splashed out £100 on a Russ Andrews job. Just a well constructed mains block, it does not filter or anything. That doesn't get used anymore as I'm down to one source and I don't need it.
I did have a Belkin 6 way block one time that was recommended to me as an upgrade. Cost was £50 new. It was a surge protector designed for use with computer equipment. With the pre-amp plugged into that there was a noticeable improvement in sound quality, noise floor dropped etc etc. I have no explanation for that but I noticed that visitors would remark on the sound quality completely unprompted which seemed to indicate the effect was real.
When I had a new leccy meter fitted I forgot to unplug it and it went haywire and I had to bin it. I can't recall the model number now. I've since tried a couple of other similar units by Belkin and they did not do what the old one did. I no longer use an active pre-amp so it doesn't matter to me anymore but that is the one and only time I heard a definite improvement with any mains-related device.
Should point out I live alone and usually the only things drawing power when I have music on, aside from the system, are the fridge and the cable box (in standby). The fridge is a larder fridge, no icebox, and works on convection so it doesn't have a big, nosy motor. So I don't have dozens of devices plugged in all over the house like a lot of people do. Maybe that is the difference?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2018 7:32:01 GMT
I run everything through one of these things Not bad value at under £100 and most importantly for me, it does not curtail the dynamics.
The voltage readout also is an eye opener how much the mains voltage rides up and down where I live.
That’s more my kind of pricing. Looks nicely built too.
|
|
|
Post by nonuffin on Jul 19, 2018 7:36:03 GMT
I am very pleased with it to honest in both build and sound quality.
Plenty of them available on ebay.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Mains
Jul 19, 2018 10:30:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 10:30:14 GMT
I run everything through one of these things
Not bad value at under £100 and most importantly for me, it does not curtail the dynamics.
The voltage readout also is an eye opener how much the mains voltage rides up and down where I live.
Reasonable pricing. Great! So, I’m assuming that it’s not marketed under the “hifi” banner! :-D
|
|
|
Post by nonuffin on Jul 19, 2018 12:31:08 GMT
I run everything through one of these things
Not bad value at under £100 and most importantly for me, it does not curtail the dynamics.
The voltage readout also is an eye opener how much the mains voltage rides up and down where I live.
Reasonable pricing. Great! So, I’m assuming that it’s not marketed under the “hifi” banner! :-D Most of them are listed under the computer section and some are listed as amplifier spare parts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Mains
Jul 19, 2018 16:29:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 16:29:25 GMT
Reasonable pricing. Great! So, I’m assuming that it’s not marketed under the “hifi” banner! :-D Most of them are listed under the computer section and some are listed as amplifier spare parts.
I must say, my heart tends to sink when i’m searching for something and I can see it is tagged with “hifi”. “Computer”, “DIY electronics”, etc.,... tend to correlate with lower prices!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 12:04:47 GMT
My Electricity is made from pure Highland water.
Courtesy of Scottish Hydro Electric.
No bloody mains cure malarkey for me, We have a lovely power supply.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 26, 2018 18:57:12 GMT
I tried a Tacima CS947 block once at £35. It took a few days but it made bass a little deeper I thought - a friend bought one too and without prompting he said the same thing. For £35?. I don't understand it - I still use it for my headphone setup. I have since tried a DC blocker and some special mains cables but I can't hear any difference really for good or bad. I have just the hifi, the fridge and a lamp on. Maybe my laptop. I never get pops or anything like that when I turn lights on and off. Maybe that's the DC blocker, but, again, not sure. Maybe should have just got a UPS and be done with it. Anyone tried that? The only ones I know well are from APC, but for computer gear, servers and the like. I missed this earlier. Anyone tried Uninterruptible Power Suplies? I don’t even know how they work, let alone whether they help or hinder.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jul 27, 2018 5:14:06 GMT
Thanks for explaining. I hadn’t come across them before
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jul 27, 2018 16:08:55 GMT
It's said UPS supplies aren't good for audio applications - something to do with high output impedance?
I'm more interested in a DC blocker and there's a fascinating thread on the AudioFlat forum about one particular design, although I'd have to put mine in a standard abs project box with flying leads rather than Mark's very elegant home-machined case solution. The BPU works well here, but in subtle musical ways rather than a 'gosh-wow' kind of way. The filters don't make things worse and possibly subtly improve the digital gear...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 16:55:09 GMT
UPS are designed for computers to protect from sudden power loss. Not for hi-fi. I'm another one who didn't entirely find the BMU positive. It sort of tightened the sound up but gave it a harder edge. Maybe the large transformers are overkill and the smaller version may be better. Used the carbon rings with digital components (on the mains cable) to good effect.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 0:03:06 GMT
Adding transformers, silencers, blockers etc....
I think David summed it up.
"Puting out fire with gasoline"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
The Mains
Jul 28, 2018 2:13:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 2:13:26 GMT
I wouldn't be without my BMU. Clarity greatly improved with it. No down side that I can hear.
I think my DC blocker is a little on the small side and have considered getting the one Mark has built. I may still do so.
Built some fancy mains cables and they are beneficial in my system. The DAC I had benefitted the most. I'll be making two more soon when I take delivery of my Monarchy Audio SM-70 PRO's.
Also added some RFI filters into the Preamp and the Phonostage. Well worth it imo. Reduced the background noise further. Some will say I'm talking Sh#t, but I'm convinced.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 2:23:53 GMT
Your talking Sh#t....😁
Na, you must have very dirty mains.☠️☢️☣️🚷
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jul 28, 2018 7:33:35 GMT
I don't know about the rest of it but fancy mains cables? forget it. Waste of time and money. It's all in the mind. Doesn't matter if your mains are dirtier than a ten dollar whore, makes no difference at all.
|
|
|
Post by savvypaul on Jul 28, 2018 8:09:53 GMT
For me...
Filters (I had an RA ultrapurifier) - strangled the music, I realised when I took it out. 'Fancy' Mains cables (RA powerkords) - no difference. Fancy mains blocks - perceived slight difference but may be psychological because 'they look better'. Different connectors - a slight difference. IECs seem inherently poor but some are worse than others. Again, could be expectation bias, as above. 'Fancy' fuses (RA superfuse) - no difference compared to putting a new standard fuse in. BMU - obvious improvement. Occasionally I take it out, listen for 10 minutes...laugh and put it back in.
When I can find an intelligent electrician I will have a dedicated radial installed with 15 amp round pin plugs (no fuses).
I do get a fair bit of DC on the mains here, which causes the BMU transformer to buzz a few times a day, so I may try a DC blocker when I get round to it.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jul 28, 2018 8:18:51 GMT
BMUs do at least do something, it just doesn't seem like it is always a positive something. No doubt there is a technical explanation for that, no idea what it is though.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jul 28, 2018 11:09:27 GMT
BMUs do at least do something, it just doesn't seem like it is always a positive something. No doubt there is a technical explanation for that, no idea what it is though. There's a very good reason, certain distortions cancel out. The iron in the transformer may also help with rf and other harmonics coming in. The BMU you rejected now sits happily in my workroom system and I missed it when it was removed - everything dirtied up just a little more), so I'm happy. Yep, it hums more than proper production ones, but it's hidden away and never intrudes.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jul 28, 2018 11:09:55 GMT
BMUs do at least do something, it just doesn't seem like it is always a positive something. No doubt there is a technical explanation for that, no idea what it is though. There's a very good reason, certain incoming distortions cancel out I gather. The iron on the transformer may also help with rf and other harmonics coming in. The BMU you rejected now sits happily in my workroom system and I missed it when it was removed - everything dirtied up just a little more), so I'm happy. Yep, it hums more than proper production ones, but it's hidden away and never intrudes.
|
|
|
Post by nonuffin on Jul 28, 2018 11:12:08 GMT
I have the ridiculously cheap Weiduka mains block and filter unit and all my mains leads are expensive upgrade cables, so I enjoy superb sound from my system. I wouldn't dream of reverting back to the cheap and nasty give away cheap cables as they simply crush the sound with restricted dynamics, bass boom, noise, hash and masked details.
Anyone who thinks a freebie mains cable is up to the job needs their head and ears examining or give up on true high fidelity sound becuase they really don't understand what exactly it is.
Yes that is a controversial statement and I have no intentions of squabbling yet again now on this forum after too many years of doing so with people who do not have open minds. I like sceptics because they are prepared to listen and will generally say "show me", whereas true cynics that won't listen to any reasoned argument will NEVER use that language.
|
|