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Post by jandl100 on Dec 7, 2021 13:02:32 GMT
Yes, fair point, Dave. I am suitably chastised. But as per my previous post, I really would be reluctant to dem the ultra£ amp as I have a dreadful suspicion that it would make my currently delightful* system sound utter cr*p. And I just don't want to go there. * The word "delightful" was used by a recently visiting audio buddy who was hearing my system for the first time. Bless him.
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Post by macca on Dec 7, 2021 13:10:24 GMT
I think because with this amp the price tag is beyond silly and we're all experienced enough to know that.
What's the most money the best possible amplifier (performance, fit, finish) needs to cost? I'd say maybe ten grand tops (taking into account that at least half of that will be profit and tax).
After that you're into Veblen goods territory. Millionaires only.
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Post by antonio on Dec 7, 2021 13:33:39 GMT
That's your opinion Macca. My brother is not a millionaire, and will never be so unless his numbers come up, he has slowly upgraded item for item of 35 plus years, it's a hobby he enjoys, has no children and should be free to do with his money as he so wishes without such comments. I never look at other forum members equipment, that goes for all the forums I'm on, and comment on the price, it's non of my business what people spend their money on, infact I love to see great systems. Same goes for cars, if someone wants and can afford a Rolls, Ferrari Aston Martin ect, good luck to them, it's something I've never aspired to. Before you start quoting about performance fit and finish Macca you will have to go and dem some more amps to prove to yourself if you are right or wrong, I've often gone to dealers with him to listen, just as second opinion, and I've heard differences as the bar has been raised. Now whether those improvements warrant the amount you have to pay is another story, but to get those improvements, unfortunately it decreases your bank statement. My theory is, to get a real improvement on an item, it will cost you at least double the cost of the item to be upgraded. You may prefer something in the same price bracket more, but that is not to say it's an improvement, just that you prefer it.
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Post by antonio on Dec 7, 2021 14:12:39 GMT
I should also have added Macca, whenever you have gone and listened to other amps what speakers have been used for these comparisons?
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,152
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 7, 2021 15:08:23 GMT
Ah, yes, good point about those wrinkles. Same as mine, they show I'm old, decrepit and past it. I don't see any, even on your beak. I would take the money also looking at my finances, but that is not why I created this thread. That was done for members to learn a little bit more about hifi in general, and not to turn it into a money orientated discussion. I don't do it to other threads where members may have rather more expensive kit than mine, why would anyone do it to my thread on something I am lucky enough to be able to hear even though I don't own it. I think had this thread started on "what's best forum" you'd have a thread forming in the vein you'd expect, however, as most if us here a working class scrubs....it was only ever going to be about the cost
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 7, 2021 15:28:59 GMT
Well, I'm not so sure that real working class scrubs would consider dropping 4 £figures on a power amp or dac. 10x less and they might start thinking about it. 10x more and you're in Humboldt territory. There's not much in it, really. You can rationalise anything as being acceptable to suit your budget.
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Post by antonio on Dec 7, 2021 15:49:30 GMT
I don't see any, even on your beak. I would take the money also looking at my finances, but that is not why I created this thread. That was done for members to learn a little bit more about hifi in general, and not to turn it into a money orientated discussion. I don't do it to other threads where members may have rather more expensive kit than mine, why would anyone do it to my thread on something I am lucky enough to be able to hear even though I don't own it. I think had this thread started on "what's best forum" you'd have a thread forming in the vein you'd expect, however, as most if us here a working class scrubs....it was only ever going to be about the cost I was only posting a review on what I listen to when in the uk, why should price come into it? There are other members on this forum with expensive systems, and nobody ever mentions money to them and how much their turntable/s cost and "I'd never spend that on a cartridge, rather have the money" As for working class scrubs my job was a window cleaner, that doesn't mean I cannot appreciate someone else's good fortune in building a quality system from starting out with an extremely modest set-up. It's not just talking of money that annoys me, but when someone can 'spout off' with little or no experience of this kind of equipment, making remarks that he cannot back up.
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Post by macca on Dec 7, 2021 16:25:02 GMT
That's your opinion Macca. My brother is not a millionaire, and will never be so unless his numbers come up, he has slowly upgraded item for item of 35 plus years, it's a hobby he enjoys, has no children and should be free to do with his money as he so wishes without such comments. I never look at other forum members equipment, that goes for all the forums I'm on, and comment on the price, it's non of my business what people spend their money on, infact I love to see great systems. Same goes for cars, if someone wants and can afford a Rolls, Ferrari Aston Martin ect, good luck to them, it's something I've never aspired to. Before you start quoting about performance fit and finish Macca you will have to go and dem some more amps to prove to yourself if you are right or wrong, I've often gone to dealers with him to listen, just as second opinion, and I've heard differences as the bar has been raised. Now whether those improvements warrant the amount you have to pay is another story, but to get those improvements, unfortunately it decreases your bank statement. My theory is, to get a real improvement on an item, it will cost you at least double the cost of the item to be upgraded. You may prefer something in the same price bracket more, but that is not to say it's an improvement, just that you prefer it. Yes it's my opinion what else would it be? You seem to be confusing what I said with some sort of criticism of what your brother spends his money on. I don't know what gave you that impression since my comments were general and your brother was never mentioned. I could not care less what he spends his money on, I have zero interest in that subject. This idea that all you have to do is spend more money and it gets better and better is not backed up by anything except the nonsense written in magazines and forums. It's 'What Hi*Fi thinking. It's what the salesman wants you to think. There's only so good anything can be and for amplifiers that bar is reached way before sixty grand. Hopefully anyone reading my comments and who subscribes to the What Hi*Fi approach will maybe have a re-think. At worst they will at least have been exposed to another point of view. I've been doing this more than 30 years, I've owned enough equipment to fill a shipping container. I've heard silly-money systems many times. I don't need to go and listen to anything more to know if I'm right or wrong.
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Post by antonio on Dec 7, 2021 17:04:33 GMT
You are the one confused Macca, I never said anything about you critising anyone, if I have perhaps you could point this out for me in my previous posts. What I would like to know is were your evidence is for this sweeping statement:- "What's the most money the best possible amplifier (performance, fit, finish) needs to cost? I'd say maybe ten grand tops (taking into account that at least half of that will be profit and tax)" What was the last amplifier you purchased? What speakers have you used to dem these ultra hi end amplifiers you know so much about. Why is it silly money when someone wants to spend more than £10k of his/her hard earned. Please be good enough to let us all know when you went out there to find out if an amplifier could be purchased to better your Krell. How do you know the bar is reached way before the sixty grand mark. These are all statements made by you, which you cannot provide evidence for, and my guess is you have no real experience of hearing them You may well have had thirty years in this hobby and owned enough equipment to fill a shipping container, but what was the standard of this equipment, Soulution, VTL, Vitus, DartZeel, Constallation, do any of these names come to mind when you were filling this container. Just maybe if you had not been frittering away your money filling this container and instead purchased quality items and upgraded sensibly, you may well have had a system to match the best.
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Post by macca on Dec 8, 2021 8:32:42 GMT
I do have a system that is very good, I would not say it matched the best as my room is a compromise and loudspeakers can always be better, unlike amplifiers. I could not improve the system by changing the amplification. Dartzeel are poor amplifiers IMO as they have poor current delivery and will not properly drive many loudspeakers, compromising sound quality. This is true of many amplifiers. It is the primary reason that amplifiers sound different. If an amplifier has inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and sufficient power and current to drive any loudspeaker to acceptable levels, then it is by definition 'perfect.' There is no unknown or magic element and once those criteria are reached there can be, by definition, no further gains. High priced amplifiers, DACs, streamers, CD players all exist because people buy with their hearts not their heads and because they do not have even a basic understanding of how audio replay works. They buy into the fantasy world created by reviewers and salesmen where more expensive always means better. When people don't know if they are listening to the cheaper or the more expensive component they cannot tell the difference. This has been practically demonstrated so many times it has long since become accepted fact. I could afford to buy much more expensive equipment but I don't because there would be no gains to be had outside of my own mind (except for the loudspeakers ofc). Plus if I did that I'd have to carry on working for a living. Otherwise I'd be buying some giant JBLs tomorrow. (The Humbolt meets all those criteria, it is a perfect amplifier. Only the cost of it stands against it since you can get that performance for a lot less. But if someone wants to spend that much on an amp then it is at least a good choice, they could do a lot worse).
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optical
Moderator
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Post by optical on Dec 8, 2021 9:00:08 GMT
I do have a system that is very good, I would not say it matched the best as my room is a compromise and loudspeakers can always be better, unlike amplifiers. I could not improve the system by changing the amplification. Dartzeel are poor amplifiers IMO as they have poor current delivery and will not properly drive many loudspeakers, compromising sound quality. This is true of many amplifiers. It is the primary reason that amplifiers sound different. If an amplifier has inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and sufficient power and current to drive any loudspeaker to acceptable levels, then it is by definition 'perfect.' There is no unknown or magic element and once those criteria are reached there can be, by definition, no further gains. High priced amplifiers, DACs, streamers, CD players all exist because people buy with their hearts not their heads and because they do not have even a basic understanding of how audio replay works. They buy into the fantasy world created by reviewers and salesmen where more expensive always means better. When people don't know if they are listening to the cheaper or the more expensive component they cannot tell the difference. This has been practically demonstrated so many times it has long since become accepted fact. I could afford to buy much more expensive equipment but I don't because there would be no gains to be had outside of my own mind (except for the loudspeakers ofc). Plus if I did that I'd have to carry on working for a living. Otherwise I'd be buying some giant JBLs tomorrow. (The Humbolt meets all those criteria, it is a perfect amplifier. Only the cost of it stands against it since you can get that performance for a lot less. But if someone wants to spend that much on an amp then it is at least a good choice, they could do a lot worse). Building a system based solely on measurements could yield a flat and dull LISTENING experience. Topologies sound different in DAC designs. Look at all the people who bought 'perfectly' measuring DAC's, Topping, RME etc (not that there is anything inherently wrong with those brands or DAC's) people have just wised up to the fact they have no soul after prolonged listening, myself included. In the quest for 'perfect' replay it's not just numbers and measurements that make the difference, my suspicion is that materials play a much bigger part than some people suspect, brass vs copper etc. They might measure the same (at output) with an electrical signal (which obviously an audio signal is) but they do not sound the same when played through some actual speakers, even if the frequency responses are the same. As is being discussed on this very forum people are getting better audible results when massively over-speccing certain components, in the world of measurements the bare minimum should be 'good enough' and as far as measurements against the limits of human hearing (distortion etc), it is. But in the real world with real speakers people are getting audible improvements. Same with power supplies etc.
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Post by antonio on Dec 8, 2021 9:11:06 GMT
I do have a system that is very good, I would not say it matched the best as my room is a compromise and loudspeakers can always be better, unlike amplifiers. I could not improve the system by changing the amplification. Dartzeel are poor amplifiers IMO as they have poor current delivery and will not properly drive many loudspeakers, compromising sound quality. This is true of many amplifiers. It is the primary reason that amplifiers sound different. If an amplifier has inaudible levels of noise and distortion, and sufficient power and current to drive any loudspeaker to acceptable levels, then it is by definition 'perfect.' There is no unknown or magic element and once those criteria are reached there can be, by definition, no further gains. High priced amplifiers, DACs, streamers, CD players all exist because people buy with their hearts not their heads and because they do not have even a basic understanding of how audio replay works. They buy into the fantasy world created by reviewers and salesmen where more expensive always means better. When people don't know if they are listening to the cheaper or the more expensive component they cannot tell the difference. This has been practically demonstrated so many times it has long since become accepted fact. I could afford to buy much more expensive equipment but I don't because there would be no gains to be had outside of my own mind (except for the loudspeakers ofc). Plus if I did that I'd have to carry on working for a living. Otherwise I'd be buying some giant JBLs tomorrow. (The Humbolt meets all those criteria, it is a perfect amplifier. Only the cost of it stands against it since you can get that performance for a lot less. But if someone wants to spend that much on an amp then it is at least a good choice, they could do a lot worse). You'd make a great politician Macca, you have replied to my post without answering one question, all you have done is given 'your' opinions without backing them up with facts. The manufacturers I mentioned were simply names off the top of my head to be used as examples, not whether you liked them or not. Now lets get back to what experience have you had with £20k+ amplifiers, have you ever been out and looked to see if your Krell amplifier can be bettered, or even that one improved upon? Why have you brought dac, streamers, and cd players into the thread, we are talking about hi end amplifiers here and the experience you have with them, so you can quote things like "anything above £10k is a waste of time ect ect"
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Post by macca on Dec 8, 2021 12:43:14 GMT
There's no need to listen to them although I have listened to many very expensive amps. How about TAD monoblocks? They cost a bomb. (actually the sound from that system was crap but that won't be due to the amps).
Mark Levinson? Also cost a packet, had a listen to a fair few of their power and pre-amps.
Tube Distinctions? One man band so doesn't mark up like the pros but you'd still be looking at about eight grand if you could talk Anthony into knocking one up for you. As a proper commerial product with dealers and distributors, £15 to £20K.
Longdog P6100M monoblocks, £3.5K - superb, you'd struggle to do better at any price. Listened to them in a number of different set ups.
Neurochrome 686 is pretty much a perfect amp in all respects, had that here in my system. What would that cost as a built commercial product selling through the usual distributor-dealer channels? I'd estimate at least ten grand.
is that enough? I could go on... I love that you think I am a neophyte about such things, that's really funny.
Bear in mind that just adjusting for inflation alone a Krell KSA50S would be £7K today, if we adjust for 'high end' inflation it would easily be over £10K. That's being conservative too.
if my pre-amp was a commercial product with a Pass Labs badge on what would that cost? I doubt less than £3K so that's at least £10K of amplification that I am using currently.
A big chunk of the money you spend on an amp that is sold through 'traditional' channels is manufacturer profit margin, distributor profit margin and dealer profit margin. High end equipment is priced at what the target market can afford, not on the 'Sell it for the least amount where we can still make a useful profit' structure.
Also if the price falls into the gap between 'normal' and 'high end' you won't sell any because the typical punter can't afford it and the high end punter will think that if it is that cheap then it can't be that good. That's why the Humboldt costs sixty large, not because that's the least they could sell it for and make money.
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Post by macca on Dec 8, 2021 12:55:17 GMT
Oh I forgot the Audionote Ongaku. That's even more money than the Humboldt. What a disappointment that was.
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Post by misterc on Dec 8, 2021 13:44:52 GMT
Soultion for hifi buffs no question; DZ if you can match the speakers then great, Vitus if you love Jazz cats and can handle £5K for a front panel replacement VTL, no thanks repaired enough of them and those Sigfrids LOL. AR for those Absolute clowns lovers. Constalation absolute NO NO trully overhyped dross D'Aggs can be ok but at the expensce of looking like a Jules Vern bed chamber pot humm no (Have owned the stereo and mono's perfer the stereo)
Not been a fan of Kim Kattral's ex's amplifiers but they are safe, Boulder used to use the big mono's with the big Focals, that lasted three months an accquired taste imho
What you have to understand Dave is that we are not constricted by the usual dealer mentality we have carte blanche with our customers as they have been to the usual suspects for many years and now its where is the music??
Big high end Ultra-fi is about lables and status, three properties in top cites, the usual collection of exotic cars, motorbikes and watches plus the odd lear style jet it goes with the territory (with maybe a couple of exceptions) the most interesting annd musicla equipment is in the upper mid range and is produced by smaller really dedicated companies that have a prie and passion in there work.
There is life outside 'hifi' thankfully and more and more long term audiophles are now realising this and its quite surprising to them so is the cost reduction
Thats what makes this hobby great fun, recently I took a pair fo 711's mono's and matching pre amplifier in P/X one of the best available as touted by many of the audio W#nk mags. Hum strange how the hard core audiphile took around 30 mnutes to decide what he was missing in terms of sheer musical involvment. Funny old world audio
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Post by misterc on Dec 8, 2021 13:52:21 GMT
Oh I forgot to add, I can only think of four places in Europe that you can genuinelly compare say £30K+ amplifier pieces side by side for at least four manufacturers (that are not tied to one distributor) in one sitting and that depends on the dealers feelings towards a particular client If this was cars drop a pin in a map near were you live and say a 10 mile radius and you will find MANY garages were you can drive multi makes of £50K plus car no problem waht so ever. Try that will audio here in the UK
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Post by antonio on Dec 8, 2021 14:13:11 GMT
All these amps you have heard Macca have been in your own room, at a dealers, comparing one against another with your Krell amp as a reference? Just because you don't like them for one reason or another does not mean you cannot get more from an amplifier the more you pay. The Humboldt is not even the top amplifier Audionet make, and I know the casing for these amps is very expensive, £10k, so disappears, and to make the best you can manufacturers have to charge, it's that simple. And for you to state £10k is the limit is sheer stupidity in my book, and to make it sound factual is even worse, and just for your info the Humboldt does not cost sixty large as you put it. There are amplifiers from Gryphon, Constellation, d'Agostino, Soulution, and FM Acoustics that cost many times what my brother paid for his amp, do you seriously think they are going to charge the sums they do if they could sell them for £10k, you are living in a world of your own. Before you make such bold statements go and have a listen to anyone of the five amplifier manufactures I have just mentioned, compare against your Krell and come back and tell us how they compared. Don't be spouting off statements you can't back up, you do yourself and this forum no favours, it is also dis-respectful on my thead.
Oh, and when did I mention in any of my posts this criticism you referred to previously?
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Post by misterc on Dec 8, 2021 16:34:12 GMT
Good call FM acoustics aren't bad at all Dave
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Post by antonio on Dec 8, 2021 18:55:36 GMT
Out of the five mentioned MisterC, FM Acoustics is the only one we have never heard I do know they make extremely expensive amplifiers though.
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Post by misterc on Dec 8, 2021 19:23:50 GMT
You won't be able to hear past all that Rhodium! . . . . . Yes Steve I noticed this as well, and if you read the review he makes a point about the expressiveness of the sound and not be Vitus like warm and cuddly.
Rhodium know your place; stay well out of the audio chain!
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Post by macca on Dec 8, 2021 19:25:41 GMT
lol
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Post by misterc on Dec 8, 2021 19:30:36 GMT
I've just seem who is the distributor for Audionet UK is Fi audio LOL
Anyone remember Connisseur audio back in the early 2000's based in Kilmanock run by one seriously shady dude, the same one who runs Fi audio.
Like a few of the other distributors happy to deal direct so maybe your brother made the deal for around £32K if that?
A some time ago (alledgely I must add) some DCS equipment was delivered to said person who it was (again alledged) it never arrived 'lost in transit', until a few years later when it turned up for sale or with a fault from an inoccent purchaser)nothing was proven I believe. A real quality human being of coarse YMMV
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Post by antonio on Dec 8, 2021 22:10:50 GMT
I've heard stories, I think rumours are best left off this thread when Fi Audio are unable to respond.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,152
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 12, 2021 18:06:43 GMT
So antonio, bringing this thread back onto topic, can you tell us *what* about the Humbolt and it's performance caught you and your brothers ear? I am interested *ONLY* in the opinion you have on the sound. I must admit, i have thrown a few admiring glances at the amp over the last few days. For me, the build looks superb. I respect that.
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Post by antonio on Dec 13, 2021 0:43:41 GMT
It started when he purchased the Audionet AMP 1 V2, compared to previously demo'd amps, for me it was a revelation, pace, control, with no fatigue what so ever, I wish I'd owned one when I had my Obelisks instead of the Naim 135's. For me, it was an amplifier the Naimee's would have loved, I remember a few moved to Vitus, but had they heard Audionet I'm sure many of those would have preferred Audionet, it was a true bargain at £6400, unfortunately a lack of dealers, poor advertising, the brand was not well known. I'm pleased to say Musicraft in Derby are now dealers, his presence on pfm should make many more audiophiles aware of this brand. He moved on to Acustic Arts mono's, they did improve upon the AMP 1, in control and flow, giving greater bass depth, but at one hell of a cost. It wasn't until Audionet returned to his system with the Humboldt we realised what had been missing. For want of a better description, PRaT, the Humboldt has it all, great soundstage, control of the speakers and pure listenability. Having never heard a Neurochrome, but by going on what you Bigman, and others have said my guess the Humboldt would give you more of the same.
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Post by antonio on Jan 6, 2022 2:11:58 GMT
I've just seem who is the distributor for Audionet UK is Fi audio LOL Anyone remember Connisseur audio back in the early 2000's based in Kilmanock run by one seriously shady dude, the same one who runs Fi audio. Like a few of the other distributors happy to deal direct so maybe your brother made the deal for around £32K if that? A some time ago (alledgely I must add) some DCS equipment was delivered to said person who it was (again alledged) it never arrived 'lost in transit', until a few years later when it turned up for sale or with a fault from an inoccent purchaser)nothing was proven I believe. A real quality human being of coarse YMMV Sorry to bring this thread back to life, Fi Audio are based in Kilmarnock, Scotland, the other side of the country to Fife. The gentleman that owns Fi Audio has never had anything to do with Connoisseur Audio, that was another well known Scottish dealer.
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