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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 14:54:33 GMT
I love the looks of the d'Aggy gear. Yummeee. I'd defo audition it if it was in my price bracket. ___ There's more to good sound than transparency imo. Depending on your definition of transparency. For me, that's lack of smear in the time domain; successive sounds being smoothed into each other. In my audio lexicon, there's also 'dynamic tracking'; the ability to follow changes in loudness accurately. Not just capturing the outer envelope of extreme loud bits, but (more importantly imo) the ability to follow the smallest scale changes in loudness. For me that's what can bring audio playback to life and help retain the pizzaz of live music making. For me, that's what makes it seem that the musicians are in the room. A lot of kit falls down on that ime. Some folks chase a 'smooth' sound, for me that denotes a lack of low level dynamic resolution. Jerry I feel you would love a lot of aspects but a couple I feel you wouldfind it a bit overwelming, however its a million miles away from Krell in that it has a good solid three dimesional base from which to work from, ggreat textural layering and superb dynamic contrasts
As you so correctly pointed out if you are in the market then this is one of five that should be on your audition list imho
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 14:58:14 GMT
And how much does a “significantrly sorted active” pre-amp cost? If you have to ask, you can't afford it. There is a difference between being able to afford it, and wanting to spend the cash on it. 😉 Hifi only interests me in this house, although my daughter is starting to enjoy music more. Between a new piece of HiFi, or a pony, I know which she would choose.
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 15:00:17 GMT
I have too many expensive hobbies to be frivolous on the HiFi spending side of things. I am just about to drop €3k on a heat pump so we can use the pool longer. Trust me, I would prefer to spend it on a pre amp, but I can not be selfish. Totally understand that family comes first and that the pot only goes so far when you have a few items on the list and a heat pump will bring more pleasure to more people its about that life balance.
My only couple of vices this year are two new pieces of test equipment for 5G and the new emc test standards for EFT testing and finially converting the the toy Merc to four wheel drive. But other things life do delay these things, but that is cest le vive!
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Preamps
May 23, 2022 15:00:46 GMT
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Post by stevew on May 23, 2022 15:00:46 GMT
What colour pony?
I’ll get me coat.
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Post by macca on May 23, 2022 15:39:30 GMT
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Preamps
May 23, 2022 16:11:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 16:11:14 GMT
£160k? 🤣
Do you get to keep the lorry it is delivered in, or does it get delivered with a set of golden ears?
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Preamps
May 23, 2022 16:12:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 16:12:19 GMT
And wtf would I spend more on a pre-amp than my car?
Riccockulous...
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Post by pete on May 23, 2022 16:24:29 GMT
And wtf would I spend more on a pre-amp than my car? Riccockulous... I have spent more on my Pre-amp than my car. Mind you, car is only worth about £500!
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 16:24:29 GMT
The HD is £45k and topping is a bit weak here to say the least lol
But its different sound whether you like it and wish to pay for it thats another matter.
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Post by macca on May 23, 2022 16:53:35 GMT
The HD is £45k and topping is a bit weak here to say the least lol But its different sound whether you like it and wish to pay for it thats another matter. 'wish to pay' doesn't come into it. I've got a few bob in the post office but I'm nowhere near that league. You'd need to have millions stashed away to be able to spend that on a pre-amp. The way I see it speakers are open-ended but there's only so good any other component can be regardless of how much it cost to design and make it. At that price level you're not just paying for sound quality.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 17:01:45 GMT
I would need a “perfect room” before I contemplated getting anywhere near £45k on one component. The HD may be better, but it is not £44.5k better. I don’t care what you say, it just can’t be.
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 17:14:16 GMT
To fully ultilse the performace of an HD you would require a system to match PLUS the other 200K spent of building a dedicated music space from the ground up 280-330 square meters should cover it plus your 2.5m foundations. dedicated mains supply/ minimal treatment, well stocked bar and quality chair/artwork/firedoors the usual etc. So as you pointed out Kevin, no point in purchasing the thing in the first place so maybe around £2k would be more in keeping and gaining a positive move forward and flexibility.
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Post by antonio on May 23, 2022 17:20:46 GMT
I now know what to do when I win the lottery, build a room for my hifi and include a well stocked bar, think I may well put in a few dancing poles rather than have my art stationery
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Preamps
May 23, 2022 17:29:27 GMT
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Post by hifinutt on May 23, 2022 17:29:27 GMT
One of my lovely bel canto pre amps is going soon so looking at alternatives . One being the ps audio bhk signature sh.however there seem to be lots of discussion about volume control problems so think will give a miss The e1x is a possibility but i dont need the dac so thats a waste of money . A esoteric c03 would be nice but they are rare and ££££ Are you in Birmingham? Happy to bring a BT2 round for a listen. yes ollie ..will bare that in mind but i like remotes
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 17:30:59 GMT
To fully ultilse the performace of an HD you would require a system to match PLUS the other 200K spent of building a dedicated music space from the ground up 280-330 square meters should cover it plus your 2.5m foundations. dedicated mains supply/ minimal treatment, well stocked bar and quality chair/artwork/firedoors the usual etc. So as you pointed out Kevin, no point in purchasing the thing in the first place so maybe around £2k would be more in keeping and gaining a positive move forward and flexibility. The plan is to build a Neurochrome pre at some point, after I have installed the heat pump.
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Preamps
May 23, 2022 17:36:20 GMT
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Post by hifinutt on May 23, 2022 17:36:20 GMT
Well the bel canto pre 3 vbs has been superb for the money , still got one with an upgraded psu which is going nowhere
You can buy s/h ps audio bhk sig for about 3700 but as mentioned read a few issues on volume control
Sadly some years ago i had a arc ref5se which showed what an incredible sense of realism and presence can be achieved by a decent pre
However valve amps can be more maintenance and seeing as they have russian valves now might not be a good time !!
Remote is 100% essential to me and a good one like the bel canto , which is probably the best remote ever ..i have several of them !! The factory had to shut over george floyd riots so a replacement was delayed .
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Post by jandl100 on May 23, 2022 17:38:44 GMT
I don't see the problem with 5 or 6 figure gear. If the punter has the dosh and wants the stuff then why not?
So you don't wish to spend that much? Fine. Buy something else.
I don't think folks like most of us who have dropped 4 or 5 figures on a system can really shake a moralistic finger at those who want to spend more.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 17:38:55 GMT
Are you in Birmingham? Happy to bring a BT2 round for a listen. yes ollie ..will bare that in mind but i like remotes I have a remote 😂
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 17:51:32 GMT
I don't see the problem with 5 or 6 figure gear. If the punter has the dosh and wants the stuff then why not? So you don't wish to spend that much? Fine. Buy something else. I don't think folks like most of us who have dropped 4 or 5 figures on a system can really shake a moralistic finger at those who want to spend more. I have no issue with it. It is all about having the choice. If someone wants to spend it, who am I to stop them? The problem is, the older we get, the more futile it becomes as we can’t fully benefit from it with our decreased hearing ability.
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Post by macca on May 23, 2022 19:15:39 GMT
I don't have any problem with it either, I'm not some bloody communist. Just saying even if I could afford a £160Kpre-amp I still wouldn't buy one as there's no tangible benefit to it and the intangible benefits like pride/exclusivity of ownership don't interest me.
£160K to spend on speakers I could be tempted.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 21:25:24 GMT
it was your 'If you really love your music' comment I took exception to. Also now I'm retired I've got all day every day to be on your case I suppose thinking about it a bit more there is the question of how much a pre-amplifier like the Philips would cost today, brand new. It wouldn't be cheap, it would not be as cheap as the Toppihg. I think it would be a couple of grand at least. If the pre-amp in question has a quality phono stage and a DAC built in that's also got to be taken into consideration. My other pre-amp is a DCB1, I think the Khozmo stepped attenuator alone is £120 so that's at least a retail price of £1200 before any of the other components are taken into consideration. It's not possible to offer a pre-amp with quality components in a quality case for beer money, not if a worthwhile profit is to be had. If it's not made in China or Malaysia or somewhere like that then labour is not cheap either, and that would apply to the PS Audio and some others too. £6.5K still seems excessive to me though. I mean what does a pre-amp need to do? Offer input selection and attenuation whilst not mangling the signal, and that's it. I only use one source so I don't even need the input selection.
Hi Martin
I would expect nothing less
I will qualify the love the music comment Marin only fair, by this I mean having a musically involving and egaging system that will make you sit and listen to the music you wish to liste to rather than it sounding 'Hey listen to this is X/Y and Z wow'
What I would suggest is look at a pre amplifier that would complient your system, so placing a £6.5K pre amplifier of ANY badge isn't really going to work in your system I feel just by tipping the balance away from what YOU like. The same goes for placing ANY piece of equipment in your system in that region of cost that would produce the same results of upsetting the system balance just from a different angle.
No point in having a £12K pair of speakers if the system can only must £4K worth of performance (no matter what the cost maybe) they will be an imbalance imho.
Jerry:
You are are full of cynicism today, tut, tut. If you have to ask I would suggest a quality active for most chaps here if you are not looking at a BB offering around the 2K mark.
Kevin:
I feel for you a Topping Pre90 is just the ticket
Or for those of you looking for an aesthetically pleasing seriously good pre amp and wish to blow part of your lottery winnings then this is an option for you.
Do you mean "Avalon" boys around the £2k mark? Just checking. Wasn't sure who the BB boys are otherwise 😂
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Post by electronumpty on May 23, 2022 21:30:00 GMT
That looks like Captain Nemo's alarm clock!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 21:31:32 GMT
Before I splashed out €400 on the Pre90, I read a load of reviews, most of which compared it to more expensive pre amps, and all of the reported that it was transparent. Sure, it is not likely to be the best, and people may want some colour, or better separation/sound staging, but you are going to pay a lot for that privilege. Volume switching on the Pre 90 is done by relays. There is an active gain stage, so improvements are likely to be possible here, but at what cost? £3k for the Benchmark? The thing to ask is not "how much does better cost" Its "what makes a preamp better" When you have that information, you can see what is worth the money and more importantly what isn't.
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Preamps
May 23, 2022 21:58:32 GMT
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Post by hifinutt on May 23, 2022 21:58:32 GMT
I dont want transparency in a pre amp , i want musicality , that incredidble sense of realism when a female vocalist sings . As misterc would say ....liquid and engaging with no grain !!
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Post by hifinutt on May 23, 2022 21:59:44 GMT
The ref 5se was THE ONLY bit of hi fi kit my wife did not want me to sell !!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 23:23:24 GMT
I dont want transparency in a pre amp , i want musicality , that incredidble sense of realism when a female vocalist sings . As misterc would say ....liquid and engaging with no grain !! Transparency is the fastest way to achieve Ultimate realism. Transparency doesn't mean a loss of musicality, it means you get a veil free window into the minutiae of emotion, personality and performance from female singers.....I mean, listening to the noise of their mouth moving, lips parting just before a note of stunning purity leaves the mouth? It doesn't get any more personal or intimate than that, and you achieve that with transparency. The loss of musicality comes from devices that are sterile, clinical and have a hard, unnatural leading edge, crap frequency response and are voiced to sound hyper detailed or "impressive in the short term.....Sh#t, in other words. Musicality exists in the recording, not in the preamp. If a recording contains it, a good preamp will reveal it, not create it, that is colouration. Then you are listening to the equipment, not the recording, and I'm afraid there's nothing "pure" about that. It's like eating a burger when you've got Wagyu on the plate. Transparency is your friend. As long as the rest of the chain is up to the preamps standard. But you know, if the remote control is kinda basic............... 🤷🏻♂️ 😂
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Post by hifinutt on May 24, 2022 7:41:18 GMT
Nicely put ollie
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Post by misterc on May 24, 2022 7:50:49 GMT
I dont want transparency in a pre amp , i want musicality , that incredidble sense of realism when a female vocalist sings . As misterc would say ....liquid and engaging with no grain !! Phil, A great deal of that capability comes from transparancy, *However* like the the Perreli advert fro a few years back "Power is nothing without control" transparancy is a waste of time UNLESS you can resolve that detail, which means not just the source/power amplifier, but speakers and signal connections as well. To obtain that realism you mention, very, very systems can even appporach this, some have great depth and solidity and have real 'presence'no question, but they lack articulation and dynamic contrasts, other have these in spades but are as subtle as Absolute Clowns demo @ Ascot. Others major on produce delicate neuonces, musical interplay and spatial cues, butthen end up like a Ls/3 sound. Then we have the posh PA systems which deliver the Phil Spector wall of sound with the corners knocked off. Before Martin jumps up and down and goes big money one of those systems was a home made valve set up, using 4W of SET into some Ex-cinema westrex speakers (bloody big) and an old Wadia 7/8/9 combo quite breath taking in some ways the sheer sense of scale was off the charts and it was entirely effortless. I other ways it was merely above average, but a specticle it is total cost around £60K most of which went on the Westrex restoration. Al located in a converted barn party central had zero on this place!
You can shoot me for this Phil, the AR pre's (last 10 years worth anyway) have left me utterly cold they do have more detail than the previous LS25/27 etc all and greater sense of air and space but they lack any emotion or real texture where as the older LS models had a real charm and had a decent stab at playing music. The worst offender for myself is the 40th Anniversary two box pre amp, it lasted 2 weeks and most of that was not used. I am sure some hard core audiophile from the WBF will be having kittens, but that is there issue not mine. It is one of the most over hyped and under performing products I have listened (unfortunatley owned as well big mistake) to save the naim tractor engines. The Soulotion equipment comes a close second
Imho a quality pre amplifier is essential to obatin a good result in a well balanced and thought out system, *BUT* do match them to the TRUE potential of your system otherwise it will just end up back on the WW classifieds after a glowing reveiw you gave it after 2 days of use. Then it quietly appears in the adverts 5 weeks later.
Many have trod this path but few have got it right at the first throw of the dice
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Post by misterc on May 24, 2022 7:56:48 GMT
The loss of musicality comes from devices that are sterile, clinical and have a hard, unnatural leading edge, crap frequency response and are voiced to sound hyper detailed or "impressive in the short term.....Sh#t, in other words.
Now Oli stop singling out naim for their statement sound or Magico for their presentation bad boy
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Post by misterc on May 24, 2022 7:58:42 GMT
It's like eating a burger when you've got Wagyu on the plate. Oh Oli you have sipped a bit in my estimation I had you pegged as a Kobi guy
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