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Post by jimbo on Feb 23, 2020 10:58:10 GMT
I don't doubt that Tony's pre sounds great. But before selling your kids' major organs to fund one, you need to see what else a £22k sized dollop could do for your system. Or a £15k upgrade. Or £10k, Or 5. Maybe new or modified electronics or speakers, maybe room acoustic control, maybe a room extension/revision? Or maybe a combination. It's mighty tempting to buy the first thing you hear that impresses in a new-to-you price band - been there, done that! - but it seems to make solid sense to me to do a bit of investigation of best use of funds first. I've built this system with the same mantra I have always used... What can I do that punches way above its price tag. That wont change, especially now! Once again, I think there is far too much focus on the price!!! In my opinion, listening to pieces like this..designed from the ground up with little to no OEM parts inside can give you a massive insight into how much is hiding behind a certain component in the system. Now, I freely accept that in the realms of normality, there isnt much out there that's going to outdo the Neurochrome preamp. I'm serious about that. The Bruno Putzys is of the same ilk, but what is possible? How will you know unless you start listening to other bits of kit, and there is no point going down the food chain, so you have to go up. Any component in my system could have been the victim yesterday, especially with the level of equipment Tony has access to. I really believe that. What I've taken from yesterday's enlightening demonstration, is that there is more available from my system and whilst I cant afford to just "buy the first thing I've heard" and let's be very clear, not would I drop £20k on anything other than paying off my mortgage.......that wont stop me investigating other ways of volume control and pre amplification and trying to better the Neurochrome and realising some of the gains available. In a world of HiFi foo and overpriced madness, it was refreshing to hear something that costs mega money but sounded good. Bit of credit to the guy!! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 11:00:31 GMT
I don't doubt that Tony's pre sounds great. But before selling your kids' major organs to fund one, you need to see what else a £22k sized dollop could do for your system. Or a £15k upgrade. Or £10k, Or 5. Maybe new or modified electronics or speakers, maybe room acoustic control, maybe a room extension/revision? Or maybe a combination. It's mighty tempting to buy the first thing you hear that impresses in a new-to-you price band - been there, done that! - but it seems to make solid sense to me to do a bit of investigation of best use of funds first. If I was going to spend a larger than usual sum, I’d do what Jerry did and explore the more unconventional speakers in search of a big improvement. I’d only do that if I felt I had a room that would allow them to work. As I have a modest room, I just don’t see the value in seeking anything exotic in the speaker department and that has kinda limited my other components, I guess the only way I’d spend big on speakers is after spending big on a listening room and I just don’t have a big enough plot without tearing down the conservatory or moving again. In all honesty, it’s just not a big enough priority for me. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2020 11:02:14 GMT
I've built this system with the same mantra I have always used... What can I do that punches way above its price tag. That wont change, especially now! Once again, I think there is far too much focus on the price!!! In my opinion, listening to pieces like this..designed from the ground up with little to no OEM parts inside can give you a massive insight into how much is hiding behind a certain component in the system. Now, I freely accept that in the realms of normality, there isnt much out there that's going to outdo the Neurochrome preamp. I'm serious about that. The Bruno Putzys is of the same ilk, but what is possible? How will you know unless you start listening to other bits of kit, and there is no point going down the food chain, so you have to go up. Any component in my system could have been the victim yesterday, especially with the level of equipment Tony has access to. I really believe that. What I've taken from yesterday's enlightening demonstration, is that there is more available from my system and whilst I cant afford to just "buy the first thing I've heard" and let's be very clear, not would I drop £20k on anything other than paying off my mortgage.......that wont stop me investigating other ways of volume control and pre amplification and trying to better the Neurochrome and realising some of the gains available. In a world of HiFi foo and overpriced madness, it was refreshing to hear something that costs mega money but sounded good. Bit of credit to the guy!! When you listened to DAVE with the M-scaler total price £16000, you were not thinking of the price. You just enjoyed the experience and reflected on how your own digital set up compared and what was missing or not? I often listen too very high priced equipment and appreciate what it can do because they set the benchmark for performance but then you try and bridge the gap in a more economical real world way? High end stuff always brings in the law of diminishing returns I feel. Yes it can outperform your own gear but often its at the margins but usually at massive cost. That's it Jim.....you get it. Thats exactly right. When we heard the Dave, I didnt come home and start saving to buy one, instead I investigated ways to bring the aspects I'd heard from that mega money system, into my own. I think I achieved a large percentage of it too, but by spending very little in comparison. Same is happening here. I heard a level of Transparency from the pre that I haven't heard from anything else in that position. I have a theory about how its achieved and I will investigate that theory and try and find a way to get a large percentage of the performance at a much reduced cost. After the Dave, I spent 1.5% of the total cost of the Dave and Mscaler and achieved a much better sound in my Digital replay. I would like to do the same again and will.... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2020 11:06:35 GMT
... and there is no point going down the food chain I don't think that's always true, actually! I think folks can get trapped on an escalating price ladder when they'd actually prefer something from the same company lower down its price range. I recall Bev on AOS saying she bought the small Maggie speakers because she preferred them to the biggies. I had a fair few Dynavector cartridges back in my vinyl days - and price/rrp was not a good guide as to how much I enjoyed them! Quite a few other examples will probably come to mind. Speakers dont count... If your room is better suited to smaller speakers, you can never go bigger because of the room. Big speakers in a small room rarely outperform a proper sized speaker for that room |
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 23, 2020 11:25:19 GMT
If I was going to spend a larger than usual sum, I’d do what Jerry did and explore the more unconventional speakers in search of a big improvement. I’d only do that if I felt I had a room that would allow them to work. Yup, exactly that. My first Plan was to buy the big MBL 101 - a 2nd hand pair was all lined up for me and ready to deliver. Then common sense made itself felt - they were just way too big for my room. So I went down the range and bought a new, smaller pair of 116f - and have been very happy with them for almost 10 years now.  |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 23, 2020 15:20:12 GMT
Just imagine how good those mbls must be? Not ten seconds, minutes, hours, days or months, but years... that had to be a Jerry record....
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Post by jimbo on Feb 23, 2020 15:36:01 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2020 17:00:07 GMT
Honestly Jim, The PecanPi went up in performance, on a scale that I didnt believe was possible from the thing. Biggest issue with the PecanPi is the RPI itself. I reckon a LPSU and some sort of shielding between the RPI and the PecanPi would result in a massive improvement Alan has offered to hook up his bench psus to the Neurochrome Preamp and see whether there is anything to be had in changing the preamps smps to lpsu There is also a very interesting preamp on the way to Alan which could provide some insight into how to take the next step towards reaching that level of Transparency As I said, I'm not interested in spending mega money but that doesn't mean I wont be investigating ways to move past the point I'm at |
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 23, 2020 17:20:35 GMT
Just imagine how good those mbls must be? Not ten seconds, minutes, hours, days or months, but years... that had to be a Jerry record.... Very true - by far the longest I have kept gear since I started boxswapping in earnest when I retired getting on 19 years ago. My most expensive (by far) and my best purchase. It's a shame that there's a strong correlation with cost, but there it is! If my pair died, I'm pretty sure I'd just buy another pair. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 23, 2020 19:24:03 GMT
Why do you think the pi is holding back the Pecanpi? What parameter do you think could be improved to improve the sound at the analogue outs?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2020 19:51:02 GMT
Why do you think the pi is holding back the Pecanpi? What parameter do you think could be improved to improve the sound at the analogue outs? I think theres probably a fair bit of noise with the Pi....I am pretty convinced if the Tinkerboard has Pecan capability, it would be better. As it is, I think the SMPS on the PecanPi isnt helping either. It's just a suspicion really, but it's not gonna break the bank to find out |
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Post by pauld on Feb 24, 2020 8:49:25 GMT
Tony certainly knows his stuff. I heard one of his early power amps in my system and the detail it was retrieving was astonishing.
I agree with Oli. People seem to get so hooked on price. My experience is that just because it is expensive doesn't automatically make it better than something cheaper. But equally, just because it is expensive, doesn't make it a waist of money. To some people a £22k pre amp is probably a bit like someone else buying a 1p sweet.
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 24, 2020 9:43:02 GMT
People are peculiar animals. When they sell something they want as much money as possible from the sale, yet when they are buying they want to pay the least amount possible.
Life has taught me (the hard way) that if you buy cheap invariably you have to buy twice and "upgrading" is merely a perverse manifestation of that.
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 24, 2020 9:46:18 GMT
I don't want to buy twice, I want to buy lots of times!  |
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Post by pauld on Feb 24, 2020 11:57:54 GMT
I don't want to buy twice, I want to buy lots of times! LOL that made me laugh, Jerry! |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 24, 2020 12:17:05 GMT
I've replaced a few switching regs on pcbs with linear ones and pulled smps out of devices to replace with linear, the results have varied from nothing to noticeable.
All in the past few years though, so probably avoiding the crap smps that plagued early examples.
Ime if you have older kit that predates modern regs for EMI filtering then smps are generally best avoided, unless you're sure they are well designed units that put next to nothing back into the mains. Given that your, tv, router, sky box, telephone and everything else use smps these days ones mains is likely already polluted.a decent schaefner iec filter should be mandatory on all our kit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 14:02:42 GMT
Sounds like you had a interesting time! So is Coherent chap ok or a wolf in sheep's clothing 
Jimbo mentioned a digital signal conditioning device for your Pi, before ending up with the Lumin streamer I also went down the Pi route as well, what i found was it responded well to power and signal cleaning very well
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2020 14:03:22 GMT
People are peculiar animals. When they sell something they want as much money as possible from the sale, yet when they are buying they want to pay the least amount possible. Peculiar or entirely logical? Obvs what they want and what they get are two different things. |
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Post by karma67 on Feb 24, 2020 17:53:42 GMT
People are peculiar animals. When they sell something they want as much money as possible from the sale, yet when they are buying they want to pay the least amount possible. Peculiar or entirely logical? Obvs what they want and what they get are two different things. seems pretty sensible to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 18:06:00 GMT
You can do all manner of things to soundstage simply by messing with stereo separation and maybe subtle noise modulation (ARC were specialists in this I remember). For twenty two grand, I'd honestly expect a milled-from-billet kind of casework, no matter how many are made. Even Naim poshed their cases up a bit when they started getting into this price arena. For twenty two grand I'd expect the actual musicians to rock up and play! |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 24, 2020 18:22:04 GMT
Spurred on from this, I want to see what Oli comes up with P.S. I still think an email or two to Tom C would help unravel a few things perhaps? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 24, 2020 18:49:12 GMT
Spurred on from this, I want to see what Oli comes up with P.S. I still think an email or two to Tom C would help unravel a few things perhaps? I've spoken to Tom C about my preamp. Alan and I are going to conduct a little experiment this week, or next |
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2020 21:24:08 GMT
Does it involve a DeLorean and some plutonium you stole off of the Libyans?
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Post by firebottle on Feb 24, 2020 21:31:15 GMT
I wish, that would be a lot more interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 10:13:42 GMT
It certainly would be with just the delorean involved.
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