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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 22:39:14 GMT
The Bakeoff has taken place!
Wow, what a great day. So many great pieces of equipment and equally good tracks played.
Morning Solid-state phonostages:
5th - Clones Audio PA1. As far as SS phonostages go, I felt this one was pretty acceptable. Not really wide, deep or 3D but tone was good with good detail and very musical.
2nd - Russell Technologies phono stage. This isn't available for purchase as it's a prototype. Great phonostage and my favourite SS stage UNTILL we got to Mozart. Lost out on that final bit of micro detail. But that's all. Excellent phonostage.
3rd - Trilogy 907. I liked this one in terms of musicality but that was about it really, i didn't get taken away by it but felt for SS is was good. The owner has suggested this is due to the DD turntable and the Trilogy not getting synergy. I don't doubt him.
1st - Aquvox. Well, this one was a bit of a creeper. I wasn't sure at first but the more I listened, the more it's revealing nature got to me. The Orchestra in the Mozart tracks really came into space and the room they recorded in was evident. Placement of musicians was pinpoint. I prefered the Russell Technologies one up untill the Cellos tuned up and the strings resonance wine me over. A close fought battle but a worthy winner.
4th - Trichord Dino. The top end let this one down. Against the better SS phonostages, there was a bit of a "sat on" feel. It also sounded a bit heavy to me due to this.
Afternoon, valves:
5TH - EAR 834 - atypical EAR phonostage, a bit heavy, a bit slow sounding but quite enjoyable. Didn't have the soundstage to compare to the better phonostages. Quality of sound was fine but presentation wasn't to my taste.
2nd - DIY Valve wizard/Croft/Vivant - These three completely split the room. The Wizard was prefered to the 3/4/5th place stages and it was 50/50 between the Wizard and Vivant. The Croft then split the room again so I'll have to wait for the Votes to be counted to see what officially happened here. The Croft managed this lofty status whilst being used with a K&K SUT and my suspicion is that a better SUT/HA would see this reign in second spot alone. The soundstage and channel separation from the croft was as good as the VAS and tonally, the Croft was nearer the VAS than the Wizard or Vivant.
The Wizard and Vivant both share the same attributes of sounding wide open and having a large soundstage. For me, the Wizard has a slightly more open midrange and better bass whilst the Vivant sounded to have a slightly bigger soundstage. In all honesty, they are borne with ideas from the same mind so any differences is just nit picking.
4TH - Digna. At £550(ish) this little box was outstanding. The level of sound reproduction was a bit of a shock and at no point sounded outclassed. Didn't have the finesse of the better phonostages and did harden up at times BUT it hadn't been run in and I expect this would improve over time.
3rd - Vincent PH700. The real surprise package of the day. Sweet, mids with airy treble. Wide soundstage and lots of depth. Incredibly good and at £500 it's a must buy for any enthusiastic vinyl owner on a budget. Lost out a bit to the others on that last Nth of a degree but goddam, it was good.
1st - VAS
The VAS (Bulgarian origin) was a supremely good phonostage and my absolute favourite of the day. This is a serious phonostage. £1600 says so too. It had separation, soundstage, depth, width, height and the vocals, oh man! they were beautiful. This one stole my heart and when it got played via an Audio Innovations SUT, well, John Lee Hooker was recording live in front of me. Boom Boom Boom Boom.......
MM only, this is a special phonostage. I want one. Very very special.
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Post by antonio on Jul 9, 2018 5:47:26 GMT
Nice write-up, to dem 12 phonostages and try and get them in some sort of order cannot have been easy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 6:44:53 GMT
Wot no NVA phono stages Biggy......!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:07:06 GMT
Nice write-up, to dem 12 phonostages and try and get them in some sort of order cannot have been easy. Hi Antonio, No, not easy but the crowd were great. We just did a show of hands to see who prefered what. Not very scientific, just opinion based. Turned out to be a lot fun and we seemed to get through them quite quickly. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 9, 2018 7:07:23 GMT
Thanks for the write-up Oliver. I like the idea of having valve and SS on two groups, especially when you had so many to,listen to, I hear what you say about not wanting to fat with an MM only stage. It also pushes the cost up from what is already a large sum.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:11:08 GMT
Wot no NVA phono stages Biggy......!!! We agreed to not include the NVA phono2 in the bakeoff. This was due to the result of its performance being impossible to prove without RD seeing it with his own eyes. As it was an AoS meet, RD couldn't attend We felt that because it couldn't be reported elsewhere, that it wouldn't show the results in the complete nature we wanted too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:13:34 GMT
Thanks for the write-up Oliver. I like the idea of having valve and SS on two groups, especially when you had so many to,listen to, I hear what you say about not wanting to fat with an MM only stage. It also pushes the cost up from what is already a large sum. No worries. It's not just the cost mate, My experience was not great at trying to get a match that worked between the cart and SUT. the only thing that really worked was an Ortofon SUT but they are about £900 which is half way to the phonostage again. Seems madness to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:13:36 GMT
Thanks for that, yes that makes sense.
Nice write up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:23:26 GMT
Thanks for that, yes that makes sense. Nice write up. The Arkless transconductance got a mention of note from those who'd heard it at the MCRU (?) bakeoff. Said it was nip and tuck between that and the Paradise. Shame we couldn't get either to the bakeoff. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 9, 2018 7:25:42 GMT
Hi Oliver,
Thanks for the write up.
Sounds like you rated the VAS as the best sound quality. Which one would you rate as the best value for money?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:32:12 GMT
Love that naim......."Arkless Transconductance"
😁
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 9, 2018 7:33:56 GMT
Love that naim......."Arkless Transconductance" 😁 Hi Jez... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 7:38:47 GMT
Hi Oliver, Thanks for the write up. Sounds like you rated the VAS as the best sound quality. Which one would you rate as the best value for money? The Croft and The Vincent were outstanding value. Both can be had for £500. Both required SUT/HA so if that turns you off the Digna at £550ish was very good value too. If MM only was ok, I'd pick the Croft every time personally. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2018 8:37:17 GMT
Quick word if may. When comparing loads of stuff, I'd suggest taking plenty of breaks (listening closely causes fatigue) and also maybe using one of them as a 'control' occasionally as a reference every so often to remind of earlier comparisons.I know it's fun, but the results are published all over and some will be regarding it as God's Law....
I told you the Croft was a goodie didn't I? Really decent straight-down-the-line chap to deal with too...
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 9, 2018 8:58:27 GMT
Speaking only for myself, comparative listening is a good way to shortlist stuff, but I wouldn’t rely primarily on it as a way to make a final choice. I find it tends to amplify differences and make you focus on the contrast between components rather than now you engage with them on their own terms whilst listening. I’ve often made a choice in favour of the more “stand-out item in a comparison, only to find that it hasn’t got the subtleties or ability to engage me over longer listening.
These days, I prefer to just live with something for a while, going back to its predecessor for a session or two later on.
Good tun to have bake-offs though and it sounds like this one was conducted in a non-combative manner, which is the ONLY way such things should be carried out IMO.
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Post by macca on Jul 9, 2018 11:35:46 GMT
Quick word if may. When comparing loads of stuff, I'd suggest taking plenty of breaks (listening closely causes fatigue) and also maybe using one of them as a 'control' occasionally as a reference every so often to remind of earlier comparisons.I know it's fun, but the results are published all over and some will be regarding it as God's Law.... I told you the Croft was a goodie didn't I? Really decent straight-down-the-line chap to deal with too... The whole point of doing it is to have fun. If people want to take other people's opinion as gospel that's their look-out.
Why some educated, intelligent grown men suddenly become gullible little children when it comes to hi-fi I've no idea.
Hi-fi is not a competition. It's a matter of personal subjective opinion. Example: we had a listen to the Urei speakers and the JM labs speakers and then a vote was taken as to which everyone preferred to use for the bake-off. The vote was 50-50 so we tossed a coin. Opinions on the phono stages was equally varied.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 11:46:31 GMT
Quick word if may. When comparing loads of stuff, I'd suggest taking plenty of breaks (listening closely causes fatigue) and also maybe using one of them as a 'control' occasionally as a reference every so often to remind of earlier comparisons.I know it's fun, but the results are published all over and some will be regarding it as God's Law.... I told you the Croft was a goodie didn't I? Really decent straight-down-the-line chap to deal with too... The whole point of doing it is to have fun. If people want to take other people's opinion as gospel that's their look-out.
Why some educated, intelligent grown men suddenly become gullible little children when it comes to hi-fi I've no idea.
Hi-fi is not a competition. It's a matter of personal subjective opinion. Example: we had a listen to the Urei speakers and the JM labs speakers and then a vote was taken as to which everyone preferred to use for the bake-off. The vote was 50-50 so we tossed a coin. Opinions on the phono stages was equally varied.
Spot on Macca. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 11:48:32 GMT
Quick word if may. When comparing loads of stuff, I'd suggest taking plenty of breaks (listening closely causes fatigue) and also maybe using one of them as a 'control' occasionally as a reference every so often to remind of earlier comparisons.I know it's fun, but the results are published all over and some will be regarding it as God's Law.... I told you the Croft was a goodie didn't I? Really decent straight-down-the-line chap to deal with too... I know the Croft gear is good mate, I just can't bring myself to spend more time and Money messing about with SUTs and Headamps. I'm in no doubt about the Croft though. The first time I heard one at Jimbos, I was blown away. The dynamics and ability to create a living picture just really spoke to me. I just can't go down the road of SUTs and HA. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 12:45:15 GMT
SUT's........😈
What is it with folk that buy a MC that chucks out 0.5mv ?
I went down that route years ago, spent money hand over fist on a various mid and low output mc's.
The cure was discovering a 1042 Goldring MM pretty much pissed on them.
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Post by macca on Jul 9, 2018 13:18:08 GMT
Controversial...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2018 13:41:19 GMT
SUT's........😈 What is it with folk that buy a MC that chucks out 0.5mv ? I went down that route years ago, spent money hand over fist on a various mid and low output mc's. The cure was discovering a 1042 Goldring MM pretty much pissed on them. Not having that, Jez. That's just too far a stretch. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2018 14:35:34 GMT
Good MC's need care in set up/partnering turntable and tonearm gear and obviously a decent MC stage (transformers add distortion and good ones cost the bloody earth, so be warned). I became so smitten with the Decca/Garrott Microscanner I tended to pass MC's by, but I loved a ZYX R100 I heard a few years ago (a shame it seemed to all but double in price) and the cheap (relatively speaking) AT-F7 has huge fans for little more than a couple of hundred quid.
Sorry Jez, a 1042 away from a Rega 3 never did it for me - and I sold loads of these with the late 90's Planar 3/RP3 where it seemed right at home.
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 12:12:02 GMT
re comments on the venue at HFS
The photo distorts the distance, it wasn't as big as it looks. Although when I walked in my first thought was 'No chance, we need a PA system.' But to my surprise it was fine, although we could have used a roll of carpet on the floor just to damp the reflections a little.
The JM labs filled the room without effort and the more efficient Urei speakers filled it with even less effort.
The Krell KSA50s is rated at 50 watts RMS. (The clue's in the name).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 12:40:50 GMT
re comments on the venue at HFS The photo distorts the distance, it wasn't as big as it looks. Although when I walked in my first thought was 'No chance, we need a PA system.' But to my surprise it was fine, although we could have used a roll of carpet on the floor just to damp the reflections a little. The JM labs filled the room without effort and the more efficient Urei speakers filled it with even less effort. The Krell KSA50s is rated at 50 watts RMS. (The clue's in the name). The rooms odd shape and size was no issue. They will talk any Sh#t to put a downer on the event. Yes, it wasn't a purpose built room with acoustic panels etc but it was fine. No one went with the purpose of being overly serious or critical, just a social gathering with a phonostage bakeoff. Considering we all agreed on the order of results, we can't all have been making it up 😉 The Krell filled the room and the JMlabs were superb. Let them think what they want. |
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 14:07:21 GMT
re comments on the venue at HFS The photo distorts the distance, it wasn't as big as it looks. Although when I walked in my first thought was 'No chance, we need a PA system.' But to my surprise it was fine, although we could have used a roll of carpet on the floor just to damp the reflections a little. The JM labs filled the room without effort and the more efficient Urei speakers filled it with even less effort. The Krell KSA50s is rated at 50 watts RMS. (The clue's in the name). . No one went with the purpose of being overly serious or critical, just a social gathering with a phonostage bakeoff. Yes, I think that might be the aspect that some people are struggling with. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 10, 2018 14:14:13 GMT
The Krell is usually around 90W comfortably across the range into 8 ohms and nearly doubles into 4 ohms I remember (it's a while since I read the Stereophile tests). Can't speak for the speakers, but the KSA50S ain't no PA amp either! I sold it to macca only because it risked overheating on the middle bias levels in the semi-enclosed space I needed to use it in and the 'club' you risk joining owning such a beast is one I can no longer afford to belong to!
It's also over twenty years since I sat in that very hall at a cousin's wedding reception, but it ain't a small room I remember.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:42:23 GMT
. No one went with the purpose of being overly serious or critical, just a social gathering with a phonostage bakeoff. Yes, I think that might be the aspect that some people are struggling with. Yes mate, I see the nonsense being spouted again. As if we're going to come away with "ultimate conclusion" from a bakeoff that had no volume regulation to start with lol. Any excuse to pour scorn on the event. It's just bitterness. What it did give was EXPOSURE to the kit there and provide people with a window to a hear something they may have never heard of. Look at VAS, no one has heard of it yet now his name is on the lips of those reading the writeups. That's what I love about bakeoffs, the exposure to new kit. There have been enquiries about the work Ian's mate did on his beautiful DCB1 which could result in some work for the builder, VAS will receive enquiries about the Phonostages he builds, DIGNA is someone we've now heard of, the KRELL is on my watch list, you have a buyer in waiting for your JMLabs FFS, where's the negative! |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 10, 2018 18:40:06 GMT
Yes, I think that might be the aspect that some people are struggling with. Yes mate, I see the nonsense being spouted again. As if we're going to come away with "ultimate conclusion" from a bakeoff that had no volume regulation to start with lol. Any excuse to pour scorn on the event. It's just bitterness. What it did give was EXPOSURE to the kit there and provide people with a window to a hear something they may have never heard of. Look at VAS, no one has heard of it yet now his name is on the lips of those reading the writeups. That's what I love about bakeoffs, the exposure to new kit. There have been enquiries about the work Ian's mate did on his beautiful DCB1 which could result in some work for the builder, VAS will receive enquiries about the Phonostages he builds, DIGNA is someone we've now heard of, the KRELL is on my watch list, you have a buyer in waiting for your JMLabs FFS, where's the negative! For one thing, it vindicates your decision not to put the Phono 2 up against the FB at the event. These events shouldn’t be about absolute winners and losers. Far too many variables to iron out. That’s before we even get to personal tastes. The latter in itself renders absolutes pointless to me. For another, you’d think the Phono 2 and a Vivant were the two titans of the industry slugging it out. They are hardly that. There are hundreds of other choices out there, and their combined sales won’t exactly corner the market. They aren’t exactly Coke and Pepsi. I’m glad you bowed out of that one. Far more fun to be had in exploring the variety of other kit out there. I think some of this expectation of finding a winner stems from the name “bake off”. Also an element of Hifi Choice Group Test Winner expectation too. No harm in having a show of hands as mild fun and a vague indicator of preferences, but you wouldn’t want to read too much into it. My best advice is to keep focusing on the gear and let anything else wash over you, |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 19:08:08 GMT
Yes mate, I see the nonsense being spouted again. As if we're going to come away with "ultimate conclusion" from a bakeoff that had no volume regulation to start with lol. Any excuse to pour scorn on the event. It's just bitterness. What it did give was EXPOSURE to the kit there and provide people with a window to a hear something they may have never heard of. Look at VAS, no one has heard of it yet now his name is on the lips of those reading the writeups. That's what I love about bakeoffs, the exposure to new kit. There have been enquiries about the work Ian's mate did on his beautiful DCB1 which could result in some work for the builder, VAS will receive enquiries about the Phonostages he builds, DIGNA is someone we've now heard of, the KRELL is on my watch list, you have a buyer in waiting for your JMLabs FFS, where's the negative! For one thing, it vindicates your decision not to put the Phono 2 up against the FB at the event. These events shouldn’t be about absolute winners and losers. Far too many variables to iron out. That’s before we even get to personal tastes. The latter in itself renders absolutes pointless to me. For another, you’d think the Phono 2 and a Vivant were the two titans of the industry slugging it out. They are hardly that. There are hundreds of other choices out there, and their combined sales won’t exactly corner the market. They aren’t exactly Coke and Pepsi. I’m glad you bowed out of that one. Far more fun to be had in exploring the variety of other kit out there. I think some of this expectation of finding a winner stems from the name “bake off”. Also an element of Hifi Choice Group Test Winner expectation too. No harm in having a show of hands as mild fun and a vague indicator of preferences, but you wouldn’t want to read too much into it. My best advice is to keep focusing on the gear and let anything else wash over you, It a bit of rivalry that has been blown out of all proportion. The Vivant and NVA PHONO2 are both benefiting from it though. This rivalry has spread across forums and with it the desire to try and buy. Personally, I'm out of it and don't want any part of it. The bakeoff isn't a winner v loser, it was a count of hands to discern how we could rate them on the day. That's all. In your home, in your system, anything you loan, buy, will sound different. |
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Post by macca on Jul 10, 2018 19:21:59 GMT
Yes mate, I see the nonsense being spouted again. As if we're going to come away with "ultimate conclusion" from a bakeoff that had no volume regulation to start with lol. Any excuse to pour scorn on the event. It's just bitterness. What it did give was EXPOSURE to the kit there and provide people with a window to a hear something they may have never heard of. Look at VAS, no one has heard of it yet now his name is on the lips of those reading the writeups. That's what I love about bakeoffs, the exposure to new kit. There have been enquiries about the work Ian's mate did on his beautiful DCB1 which could result in some work for the builder, VAS will receive enquiries about the Phonostages he builds, DIGNA is someone we've now heard of, the KRELL is on my watch list, you have a buyer in waiting for your JMLabs FFS, where's the negative! For one thing, it vindicates your decision not to put the Phono 2 up against the FB at the event. These events shouldn’t be about absolute winners and losers. Far too many variables to iron out. That’s before we even get to personal tastes. The latter in itself renders absolutes pointless to me. Exactly right. I don't even use vinyl anymore but I still enjoyed being there and having a listen and that is what it is all about. No-one who attended was interested in winners and losers, it's all about having a good time, listening to some kit and some music you've not heard, and meeting some of the people you chat with on the forums properly. |
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