optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 6:48:50 GMT
A little more towards the more conventional than that I would say . . . . That's it for now until I get these pics sorted . . . might get some up tonight even although I'm going to the Albert Hall for the old man's birthday present to see Jeff Beck . . . . so might be late. Not only would you have seen Jeff Beck, but according to our newspaper Johnny Depp was due to make a special appearance, hope it was a good show. Yes Johnny rocked up for quite a few numbers actually, apparently he joined him in Sheffield too but thought it might have been a one off but I guess he's on tour with him! He's alright, I'd say he'd play in a decent cover band but nothing to worry the commercial charts! In fact he probably stayed on stage a little too long but who's going to tell him, it's Johnny Depp . . . . Jeff was great though, played a very eclectic set shall we say, enjoyed hearing his rather unique 'off the cuff' and 'fidgety' style live. I can see why he's so well regarded.
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Post by antonio on May 31, 2022 9:04:02 GMT
Times ticking away on the promise of new speaker photos, I can see you losing your high faluting moderators position and going back to just the one star
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 9:10:31 GMT
Premise: I've always been a huge fan of electrostats. I've had countless pairs of Quads and now have come to adore the sound that my Martin Logan Prodigy's provide. However there seems to be no standing still with my system these days and curiosity often gets the better of me. Something I have learned over the past few years is that if possible it's best to audition a potential 'upgrade' side-by-side with whatever it is supposedly replacing IN YOUR OWN LISTENING ENVIRONMENT! I cannot overstate that last part enough, hence the bold font! Obviously this is not easy without coughing up the outlay if purchasing second hand so instead of my usual approach of sell first (or very close to purchase date) for a lower overall net spend, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and put your cards on the table . . . . The benefits of this approach greatly outweigh the drawbacks in my opinion. Firstly even if something (speakers mostly) is an 'upgrade' (great reviews/personal recommendation etc etc) over what you're replacing, your listening space and environment may well be changing the frequency response of the speaker, for better or worse it will likely impact it somehow. As I seem to have a penchant for cramming massive speakers in relatively tight spaces, (okay it's not tiny but it's not exactly "American living room" territory either) this is even more of a vital aspect not to overlook. Although it has taken me quite a long time on occasion, with the right combination of absorption and diffusion I have always been able to make them work in the space, not only that but to completely fill the space with sound without any gaps in the soundstage or dips/peaks in the frequency response. Sometimes this occurs after a few days/weeks sometimes it takes me a little longer. The Speakers: A pair of Heco New Statements came to my attention a while ago. This particular pair (as some of you will know) have been for sale for quite some time now (which of course begs more questions in itself but we'll get to that later). So off on a trip to Coventry to audition and indeed collect them assuming all is well. The specs: Type: 3 way, 4 driver loudspeaker system Frequency Response: 18Hz to 52kHz Power Handling: 300W Recommended Amplifier: 30 to 500W Crossover Frequency: 230, 3200Hz Impedance: 4Ω Sensitivity: 93dB Bass: 2 x 200mm cone Midrange: 1 x 170mm cone Tweeter: 1 x 25mm dome Enclosure: bass reflex Dimensions: 292 x 1245 x 450mm Weight: 48.8kg The audition: So obviously the guy wanted to show off the bass depth, slam, texture etc (and also the reason he was letting them go) . . . . Well he was playing them pretty loud (probably upwards of 90db-ish) but it shook the room and probably the entire house. Paintings were jumping about on the walls, glasses were wondering across tables and my dad (stood at the back of the room) said his trousers were genuinely flapping about . . . I was wearing shorts so experienced no such issue . . . . He told me this was the main reason he was selling them and I could completely understand why, it's not that the bass was massively uncontrolled or bloated, it was actually extremely textured and detailed it just made the walls vibrate. You simply couldn't tolerate it for any great length of time as impressive as it was. Seeing as his listening levels seemed to be fairly higher than my own, I came to the conclusion they would provide the perfect amount of bass for my room (with my room having a few considerations. . . . ) The immense bass performance was very encouraging for a few reasons. Firstly I want to dump my subs, they're actually great and have served me very well but they take another couple of power cables as well as floor space and seeing as the speakers actually get down as low as them anyway, it makes sense. So the speakers have that area covered, another factor is there is a bass null near my listening position. The wave bounces off the front and rear walls and meet around the listening area which probably gives a -5db drop off under 75Hz. The subs have actually been used out of phase (180') to cancel out that wave although positioning the Logans and subs a certain distance from the back wall (as they have this technology built in anyway) also provides adequate relief from this issue. Used in combination the effect is pretty much nullified but it would be nice not to be restricted by the subs and speaker placement so much, so with the immense bass from the Heco's I was hoping I would get a bit more leeway in regards to placement. First impressions when home: I did not, I set them up around the same placement as the Logans at first. My jaw hit the floor and not in a good way. These speakers that had literally almost blown the windows out of a guys house a couple of hours earlier, were making no bass. Not weak, tuneless, one note bass, just no bass. Like as if I hadn't connected the LF terminals on the back (I did check and checked again!). So at this point I am actually wondering what on earth is going on. Weirdly I wasn't even that annoyed, usually I would have been tearing my hair out at the huge chunk of change I'd just dropped on something that sounded dead in my room. However I chose to look at the glass half full - I could easily sell them on for what I paid or probably a bit more actually, also, I still have the Logans, which I love and know sound superb in my room. Don't give up: So as you can imagine I spent the next few night tweaking and changing. Firstly I dumped the jumpers and stripped my speaker cable further back to give me enough bare wire to thread the single core through all the terminals. That yielded an improvement, maybe not much more bass but there was a more cohesive picture beginning to emerge from the speakers. I'll talk about the midrange and HF now. In my room, it was shrill, no hiding from that. The tweeter was beaming around the room and making certain bits of recording sound very edgy. As the frequency response of the speaker is nice and flat this can again only be blamed on one thing, the room. Right, lets start again . . . . again. I moved the Logans out of the room as well as a few other bits that were laying around . . . . set everything back up again but tried using some reinforcement from the rear wall. The Heco's have 3 large rear bass ports as well as a passive radiator near the top so we can assume some sort of room boundary reinforcement can be part of the equation. I had a lot of absorbing material directly behind the Logans, as they are dipoles they benefit greatly from absorbing a lot (but not all) of the sound coming out of the back of them. I removed some of the material from the rear wall and spread some more around the side walls to deal with the mid/high frequencies as well as the new first reflection points (obviously having different speakers in a different spot was always going to change the sound, quite drastically in this case). Coming together: Well by now there is bass, a fair amount more. It's natural sounding, it gets down low (although still not as low as the subs) but it doesn't have that 'thwack' and impact that a proper system should have. The rest of the frequency range is now absolutely singing though, mids are rich and lucid without ever seeming synthetic, highs are also now nicely tamed with just enough sparkle appearing from extremes of left and right of the soundstage as well as everything sounding much much deeper in the soundstage. A real front to back performance was now starting to open up finally. It's still not all roses though, a bass drum kick was still fairly muted by comparison to the Logans, which do have a massive 12" woofer on the front and a 10" on the rear and a giant cabinet so maybe my expectations of getting a better speaker that would fit seamlessly in were just a bit unrealistic . . . . but what about the atomic bass I experienced in the audition, why could I not get any of that? Another roll of the dice (well, I've never given up on hifi challenge yet . . . ) Plumbed the subs back in. Ah, okay, weird. Kaboom, what is going on here . . . . well probably the same thing that was happening with the Logans, with another little quirk . . . A few tweaks to the crossover and volume of the subs as well as a change of plinth for them (now sitting solely on marble ones), the Heco's sound incredibly well balanced in the LF. It's mad, you can't tell the subs are on at all, you can hear the correct timing, texture and 'impact' from the main speakers, or at least that how it is audibly. Actually thinking about it this isn't a huge surprise, I have a theory and it's this: These subs are actually extremely good, they are 'fast' enough to keep up with panels speakers and have done a good job underpinning their bass output (either by being used to cancel room modes or just adding bass output into the room). Now they are playing with their conventionally woofer'd counterparts, they are really showing off what they can actually do. Regarding the speakers they are certainly meant to be played a little louder than I listen to most of the time (most speakers are actually) therefore a lot of the bass response is still within the confines of the cabinet and never makes it out into the rest of the room. Even at pretty high volumes the drivers are barely moving and not much air is coming out of the bass ports. Crank the hell out of it and yes bass is absolutely enormous, as in drum kit 3 meters away sort of impact. Which is basically how they were demoed to me giving me a slightly false sense of the speakers response (or at least at that volume). Good news is that the subs can augment this response at lower listening levels until the levels are such that the speaker completely takes over, then the bass is absolutely atomic and I have found myself now listening around these levels a little more frequently than I used to. Great news for me, not great for the neighbours . . . . oh well, they can come and have a listen. With the subs integrated (I'm never going to be rid of them am I?!?!) listening at all levels low and (especially) high is an absolute joy. The system is barely breaking sweat. However if I want it genuinely can approach concert level capabilities with a few clicks of the volume remote. The fact it still sounds spectacular now at lower listening levels does mean my initial fears can now be laid to rest. Sub's, even more important for low level listening, who knew . . . well probably a few as it makes total sense that a speaker designed for big rooms and high volume only really gets 'properly' going with a few watts up it.
A new way of listening: Another week or so has passed and they are really settling in now. It's just music music music all the time, any genre, digital, vinyl whatever. Although the vinyl is extra special I have to say, I know a few are dumping theirs now and I completely empathise with the reasons but my god you'll have to tear me away kicking and screaming because on this system (more than any I've put together before or indeed heard) it bloody rocks. A footnote on the Logans, still a fantastic speaker and still does a couple of things even the Heco's can't. The 'special' presentation and imaging appearing from absolutely nowhere is still as addictive as it was the first time I heard a panel but overall I'm happy with the change to the Heco's. I might recap the Logans (they are approaching 20yrs old) and then do another comparison but I do suspect by then I won't be able to live without the more well rounded abilities of the Heco's. End game? Never say never . . . . but as close as I've heard to date. Thanks for reading.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2022 10:34:24 GMT
Fantastic write up and for me, it was great to see my prattling about how good HECOs are has not fallen on deaf ears.
I've always fancied a pair of the statements but I know that it wouldn't work here. I am now living vicariously through your system updates in regard to the HECOs.
STILL the best kept secret in HiFi IMO.
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 10:46:42 GMT
Fantastic write up and for me, it was great to see my prattling about how good HECOs are has not fallen on deaf ears. I've always fancied a pair of the statements but I know that it wouldn't work here. I am now living vicariously through your system updates in regard to the HECOs. STILL the best kept secret in HiFi IMO. Yup, the seed was sewn a few months ago by yourself then chatting to Angus and a couple of others, that seed grew . . . . Eventually I could not get them out of my mind. The frequency response along with the other specs cannot be ignored really. As you have eluded to also, speaker technology has certainly moved on over the past few years and these employ a lot of the same techniques found on even more expensive examples. Curved cabinet eliminating colorations and resonance, super stiff cabinet bracing, big alnico magnets, time aligned drivers and a few other interesting design factors incorporated into a great looking package, it all adds up and now the LF is sorted they just entertain as simple as that. Cheers Oli
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Post by macca on May 31, 2022 12:40:07 GMT
Big bangers, not what I was expecting, thought it would be Apogees or some other panel-type. Hard to improve on those ML you already have I'd thought. Can't find much about them, at least not in English. This is funny: '''Not too fast and hard rock and metal composition pleasantly pleased with the density and downright compelling mega-pressure. In the craziest tempo records felt attempts bass-live their separate lives. But in general, a powerful concert sound showed very impressive volume and drive.'' www.hifi-review.com/152918-heco-the-statement.htmlI've always said that a speaker has to have compelling mega-pressure or it's not fit for purpose. ASR would back me up on that I'm sure. The bass thing you describe is weird, three ports, an ABR and two 8 inch bass drivers and there was no bass? Has to be something very weird about your room. You are using the 686 I take it?
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 13:02:22 GMT
Big bangers, not what I was expecting, thought it would be Apogees or some other panel-type. Hard to improve on those ML you already have I'd thought. Can't find much about them, at least not in English. This is funny: '''Not too fast and hard rock and metal composition pleasantly pleased with the density and downright compelling mega-pressure. In the craziest tempo records felt attempts bass-live their separate lives. But in general, a powerful concert sound showed very impressive volume and drive.'' www.hifi-review.com/152918-heco-the-statement.htmlI've always said that a speaker has to have compelling mega-pressure or it's not fit for purpose. ASR would back me up on that I'm sure. The bass thing you describe is weird, three ports, an ABR and two 8 inch bass drivers and there was no bass? Has to be something very weird about your room. You are using the 686 I take it? Yup, it's been the same for all speakers I've tried in there, it's just a dimensions thing. With an alcove to the left (although reflections not beaming directly into it) and another odd shaped space behind the listening area, it creates a bass suck out at the listening area. I've overcome it now though using the same method I've used before, just was expecting them with their 'superior' bass output to perhaps overcome it but that's not necessarily how audio physics works. A lot of setups use subs to control room modes, not just to add more bass. Like I say they do bass, of course they do, just need to be at a certain volume before they get 'pumping' as it were. Relying on the subs until it gets there sounds surprisingly natural. Re moving from the Logans, it's a bit of a surprise to me too but they are getting on a bit and at least need a recap. There was no absolute need for me to change them, they are enough speaker for almost anyone I would suspect. But I am becoming extremely critical of anything I perceive to be anything less than excellent. Spending what is not insignificant amounts of money it's gotta be absolutely right, accept nothing less. Personally I've always had a theory (and hope!) that a (good measuring) speaker that sounds decent placed almost anywhere may sound very good when placed in it's ideal position, but a (good measuring) speaker that sounds poor in most places except it's ideal position does end up being more rewarding. Not just something I'm telling myself to justify all the messing around but it does make sense to me. To me some speakers are more 'jack-of-all-trades' and may sound really good but the latter (initially poor sounding) speakers CAN sound magic with some perseverance and commitment. It's happened a few times and when you finally NAIL that positioning, toe in, distance from front/back/side walls and the speakers start working with the room instead of fighting it. Everything snaps into focus and they just do that disappearing thing. Not saying that's set in stone, just my experience. The Logans were the same, only made total sense when angled to the correct 2mm or so. Away from that they were a bit 'meh', to me anyway. Like I say I'm accepting nothing less than excellent in every way now! EDIT - RE the lack of reviews, yes it is weird as it's clearly a very accomplished speaker. Not like it's a weird Chinese fledgling company or something. The specs and a couple of recommendations was enough for me to at least go listen to a pair, glad I did now. Obviously the guys room I heard them in was a little better acoustically for bass, too good in fact giving it a little too much reinforcement, he only had them less than a ft from the rear wall. Also I've read enough guff on speaker reviews that don't relate to your room, your system or even reality in general I've found
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Post by antonio on May 31, 2022 14:25:09 GMT
I've had a word with Oli, your job's safe, at least for now due to an excellent write up and photos I certainly like the look of them, although reading your review I was getting a little worried about how loud you had to play them to get the bass to work, I believe you have a natural level that is suitable to you, going over that and you would soon become tired/fatigued/have to turn it down which is not great, so pleased integrating the subs allowed listening at a lower level. I hope you continue to enjoy your new purchase, and next time don't keep us in 'suspenders' when you buy something new
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 14:37:51 GMT
I've had a word with Oli, your jobs safe, at least for now due to an excellent write up and photos I certainly like the look of them, although reading your review I was getting a little worried about how load you had to play them to get the bass to work, I believe you have a natural level that is suitable to you, going over that and you would soon become tired/fatigued/have to turn it down which is not great, so pleased intergrating the subs allowed listening at a lower level. I hope you continue to enjoy your new purchase, and next time don't keep us in 'suspenders' when you buy something new Yeah point taken Dave (I know you're only pulling my leg but . . . . ) Woke up at 5:30 this morning (got in too late last night to do it) to charge my old phone (with a better camera) to take better pics with before I went to work. Got to work, started the write up around 7:30 . . . a few drafts and having to find an old cable to transfer the photo's from my old phone onto an image hosting site, plus having to do some actual work (the cheek of that request at work ey!), I thought I did pretty well to spare you having to look at inferior pictures of an interesting item . . . . as promised. I clearly must do better though Glad you took the time to read and hope you enjoyed it. They're really something. The way they are setup now, they have that THX theater rumbling bass but it's completely controlled. In a small-medium sized room, that's no mean feat. I might take some rudimentary measurements later to see how low they can really go as I have a half decent microphone for room correction.
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Post by antonio on May 31, 2022 14:57:31 GMT
Only pulling your leg as you know, I can wait until next year for the measurements, Macca will no doubt be 'chomping at the bit'
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Post by macca on May 31, 2022 15:47:58 GMT
I am interested to see what is happening with the bass. I'm just wondering if it's just a question of expectations - deep bass with the Logans plus sub, then losing the subs was just too much of a drop?
I know that Heco quote a very low bass response but at how many db down? A ported speaker will have bass that drops of very rapidly below the port frequency.
Rooms can be strange sometimes. Worst I had was not the smallest but a quite large room with bay window, large staircase and very high ceiling (over the stairs it was 30' high. Bouncy wooden floor and no clear, straight wall to back the speakers onto, which is what was needed for reinforcement as the room was so cavernous it sucked out the bass.
Had a fair few different speakers in there and was never happy, not the speaker's fault. I tried every possible set up configuration. In the end I built some speakers with exaggerated bass and they did work - but a month after I finished them I had to move out and of course they did not work at all in the new place.
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Post by misterc on May 31, 2022 15:53:01 GMT
All of the Heco we sold were well appointed, good top to bottom cohesiveness and nice timbre, the not so equal point were bass looseness (even with 300 watt proper mono's) and a more polite sound, however a quality speaker non the less
Must admit I'm with Martin I was expecting Stages or Calipers?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2022 16:02:46 GMT
The HECO's don't like being too far away from the rear wall. It's very easy to put them in a dead zone, and for all the LF to disappear.
If you position them correctly, there is no bloom or flabby bass at all. They are a monster speaker and for the price, you will struggle to find anything close in their range. I remain a big HECO fan. I hear the Celan GT702 regularly, and they never fail to impress me. seriously good things.
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Post by macca on May 31, 2022 16:07:00 GMT
For most conventional speakers you should have them within 2 feet of the wall or at least 8 feet away (like I have mine).
I forget exactly why but in between 2 and 8 feet is the death zone for bass.
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edward
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Post by edward on May 31, 2022 16:45:24 GMT
Nice write up Chris. It's like being taken on the same journey - all the downs and ups. Glad you were able to dial things in.
Will you try tune things more so that you can dispense with the subs (to save real estate as you wanted)?
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 17:14:27 GMT
For most conventional speakers you should have them within 2 feet of the wall or at least 8 feet away (like I have mine). I forget exactly why but in between 2 and 8 feet is the death zone for bass. Yeah they're just below 2 feet away. Having said that very few of the other standard audio physics principals seem to apply in this room, it's pretty unconventional. I've been through it with various rooms/speakers but always come out the other side with a satisfactory result. These with the subs are giving a better quality bass than the combo with the Logan's, take the subs away and the LF is better at low levels with the Logan's, although it's pretty close now these are properly placed. I'll keep the subs as it's the best combination and SQ is all I'm really interested in. I'm absolutely positive in a room without these issues the natural bass response from both speakers would be more than ample (I've heard so in different rooms) but my room is 'special' 😂
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 17:15:55 GMT
Nice write up Chris. It's like being taken on the same journey - all the downs and ups. Glad you were able to dial things in. Will you try tune things more so that you can dispense with the subs (to save real estate as you wanted)? To be honest I'm really happy with the bass response with the subs and don't want to jeopardize that by messing further, it wasn't a priority to lose them, just a bonus. Glad you enjoyed the read, appreciate you saying so.
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Post by antonio on May 31, 2022 18:28:17 GMT
For most conventional speakers you should have them within 2 feet of the wall or at least 8 feet away (like I have mine). I forget exactly why but in between 2 and 8 feet is the death zone for bass. I don't know were you've heard this, how many times have I read, speakers should be placed 1 metre from the wall, right inside your death zone. My speakers are placed more than 2 feet from the wall and I am happy with how they sound at present.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2022 18:34:19 GMT
For most conventional speakers you should have them within 2 feet of the wall or at least 8 feet away (like I have mine). I forget exactly why but in between 2 and 8 feet is the death zone for bass. I don't know were you've heard this, how many times have I read, speakers should be placed 1 metre from the wall, right inside your death zone. My speakers are placed more than 2 feet from the wall and I am happy with how they sound at present. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, Dave. If I pull my speakers out too far, they lose a lot of LF response. It is room dependent. HECOs are no exception
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Post by brian2957 on May 31, 2022 18:45:08 GMT
Fantastic post Chris and a great result. The Hecos look outstanding BTW. I'm not jealous...honest
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 18:48:53 GMT
I don't know were you've heard this, how many times have I read, speakers should be placed 1 metre from the wall, right inside your death zone. My speakers are placed more than 2 feet from the wall and I am happy with how they sound at present. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, Dave. If I pull my speakers out too far, they lose a lot of LF response. It is room dependent. HECOs are no exception Exactly what I was going to say, there are good guidelines but there are always exceptions to the rule. It's ALL about how the room interacts with the speakers IF maximum SQ is your goal.
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Post by antonio on May 31, 2022 18:55:02 GMT
I don't know were you've heard this, how many times have I read, speakers should be placed 1 metre from the wall, right inside your death zone. My speakers are placed more than 2 feet from the wall and I am happy with how they sound at present. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule, Dave. If I pull my speakers out too far, they lose a lot of LF response. It is room dependent. HECOs are no exception Re read Macca's post
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Arke
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Post by Arke on May 31, 2022 19:18:52 GMT
Premise: I've always been a huge fan of electrostats. I've had countless pairs of Quads and now have come to adore the sound that my Martin Logan Prodigy's provide. However there seems to be no standing still with my system these days and curiosity often gets the better of me. Something I have learned over the past few years is that if possible it's best to audition a potential 'upgrade' side-by-side with whatever it is supposedly replacing IN YOUR OWN LISTENING ENVIRONMENT! I cannot overstate that last part enough, hence the bold font! Obviously this is not easy without coughing up the outlay if purchasing second hand so instead of my usual approach of sell first (or very close to purchase date) for a lower overall net spend, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and put your cards on the table . . . . The benefits of this approach greatly outweigh the drawbacks in my opinion. Firstly even if something (speakers mostly) is an 'upgrade' (great reviews/personal recommendation etc etc) over what you're replacing, your listening space and environment may well be changing the frequency response of the speaker, for better or worse it will likely impact it somehow. As I seem to have a penchant for cramming massive speakers in relatively tight spaces, (okay it's not tiny but it's not exactly "American living room" territory either) this is even more of a vital aspect not to overlook. Although it has taken me quite a long time on occasion, with the right combination of absorption and diffusion I have always been able to make them work in the space, not only that but to completely fill the space with sound without any gaps in the soundstage or dips/peaks in the frequency response. Sometimes this occurs after a few days/weeks sometimes it takes me a little longer. The Speakers: A pair of Heco New Statements came to my attention a while ago. This particular pair (as some of you will know) have been for sale for quite some time now (which of course begs more questions in itself but we'll get to that later). So off on a trip to Coventry to audition and indeed collect them assuming all is well. The specs: Type: 3 way, 4 driver loudspeaker system Frequency Response: 18Hz to 52kHz Power Handling: 300W Recommended Amplifier: 30 to 500W Crossover Frequency: 230, 3200Hz Impedance: 4Ω Sensitivity: 93dB Bass: 2 x 200mm cone Midrange: 1 x 170mm cone Tweeter: 1 x 25mm dome Enclosure: bass reflex Dimensions: 292 x 1245 x 450mm Weight: 48.8kg The audition: So obviously the guy wanted to show off the bass depth, slam, texture etc (and also the reason he was letting them go) . . . . Well he was playing them pretty loud (probably upwards of 90db-ish) but it shook the room and probably the entire house. Paintings were jumping about on the walls, glasses were wondering across tables and my dad (stood at the back of the room) said his trousers were genuinely flapping about . . . I was wearing shorts so experienced no such issue . . . . He told me this was the main reason he was selling them and I could completely understand why, it's not that the bass was massively uncontrolled or bloated, it was actually extremely textured and detailed it just made the walls vibrate. You simply couldn't tolerate it for any great length of time as impressive as it was. Seeing as his listening levels seemed to be fairly higher than my own, I came to the conclusion they would provide the perfect amount of bass for my room (with my room having a few considerations. . . . ) The immense bass performance was very encouraging for a few reasons. Firstly I want to dump my subs, they're actually great and have served me very well but they take another couple of power cables as well as floor space and seeing as the speakers actually get down as low as them anyway, it makes sense. So the speakers have that area covered, another factor is there is a bass null near my listening position. The wave bounces off the front and rear walls and meet around the listening area which probably gives a -5db drop off under 75Hz. The subs have actually been used out of phase (180') to cancel out that wave although positioning the Logans and subs a certain distance from the back wall (as they have this technology built in anyway) also provides adequate relief from this issue. Used in combination the effect is pretty much nullified but it would be nice not to be restricted by the subs and speaker placement so much, so with the immense bass from the Heco's I was hoping I would get a bit more leeway in regards to placement. First impressions when home: I did not, I set them up around the same placement as the Logans at first. My jaw hit the floor and not in a good way. These speakers that had literally almost blown the windows out of a guys house a couple of hours earlier, were making no bass. Not weak, tuneless, one note bass, just no bass. Like as if I hadn't connected the LF terminals on the back (I did check and checked again!). So at this point I am actually wondering what on earth is going on. Weirdly I wasn't even that annoyed, usually I would have been tearing my hair out at the huge chunk of change I'd just dropped on something that sounded dead in my room. However I chose to look at the glass half full - I could easily sell them on for what I paid or probably a bit more actually, also, I still have the Logans, which I love and know sound superb in my room. Don't give up: So as you can imagine I spent the next few night tweaking and changing. Firstly I dumped the jumpers and stripped my speaker cable further back to give me enough bare wire to thread the single core through all the terminals. That yielded an improvement, maybe not much more bass but there was a more cohesive picture beginning to emerge from the speakers. I'll talk about the midrange and HF now. In my room, it was shrill, no hiding from that. The tweeter was beaming around the room and making certain bits of recording sound very edgy. As the frequency response of the speaker is nice and flat this can again only be blamed on one thing, the room. Right, lets start again . . . . again. I moved the Logans out of the room as well as a few other bits that were laying around . . . . set everything back up again but tried using some reinforcement from the rear wall. The Heco's have 3 large rear bass ports as well as a passive radiator near the top so we can assume some sort of room boundary reinforcement can be part of the equation. I had a lot of absorbing material directly behind the Logans, as they are dipoles they benefit greatly from absorbing a lot (but not all) of the sound coming out of the back of them. I removed some of the material from the rear wall and spread some more around the side walls to deal with the mid/high frequencies as well as the new first reflection points (obviously having different speakers in a different spot was always going to change the sound, quite drastically in this case). Coming together: Well by now there is bass, a fair amount more. It's natural sounding, it gets down low (although still not as low as the subs) but it doesn't have that 'thwack' and impact that a proper system should have. The rest of the frequency range is now absolutely singing though, mids are rich and lucid without ever seeming synthetic, highs are also now nicely tamed with just enough sparkle appearing from extremes of left and right of the soundstage as well as everything sounding much much deeper in the soundstage. A real front to back performance was now starting to open up finally. It's still not all roses though, a bass drum kick was still fairly muted by comparison to the Logans, which do have a massive 12" woofer on the front and a 10" on the rear and a giant cabinet so maybe my expectations of getting a better speaker that would fit seamlessly in were just a bit unrealistic . . . . but what about the atomic bass I experienced in the audition, why could I not get any of that? Another roll of the dice (well, I've never given up on hifi challenge yet . . . ) Plumbed the subs back in. Ah, okay, weird. Kaboom, what is going on here . . . . well probably the same thing that was happening with the Logans, with another little quirk . . . A few tweaks to the crossover and volume of the subs as well as a change of plinth for them (now sitting solely on marble ones), the Heco's sound incredibly well balanced in the LF. It's mad, you can't tell the subs are on at all, you can hear the correct timing, texture and 'impact' from the main speakers, or at least that how it is audibly. Actually thinking about it this isn't a huge surprise, I have a theory and it's this: These subs are actually extremely good, they are 'fast' enough to keep up with panels speakers and have done a good job underpinning their bass output (either by being used to cancel room modes or just adding bass output into the room). Now they are playing with their conventionally woofer'd counterparts, they are really showing off what they can actually do. Regarding the speakers they are certainly meant to be played a little louder than I listen to most of the time (most speakers are actually) therefore a lot of the bass response is still within the confines of the cabinet and never makes it out into the rest of the room. Even at pretty high volumes the drivers are barely moving and not much air is coming out of the bass ports. Crank the hell out of it and yes bass is absolutely enormous, as in drum kit 3 meters away sort of impact. Which is basically how they were demoed to me giving me a slightly false sense of the speakers response (or at least at that volume). Good news is that the subs can augment this response at lower listening levels until the levels are such that the speaker completely takes over, then the bass is absolutely atomic and I have found myself now listening around these levels a little more frequently than I used to. Great news for me, not great for the neighbours . . . . oh well, they can come and have a listen. With the subs integrated (I'm never going to be rid of them am I?!?!) listening at all levels low and (especially) high is an absolute joy. The system is barely breaking sweat. However if I want it genuinely can approach concert level capabilities with a few clicks of the volume remote. The fact it still sounds spectacular now at lower listening levels does mean my initial fears can now be laid to rest. Sub's, even more important for low level listening, who knew . . . well probably a few as it makes total sense that a speaker designed for big rooms and high volume only really gets 'properly' going with a few watts up it.
A new way of listening: Another week or so has passed and they are really settling in now. It's just music music music all the time, any genre, digital, vinyl whatever. Although the vinyl is extra special I have to say, I know a few are dumping theirs now and I completely empathise with the reasons but my god you'll have to tear me away kicking and screaming because on this system (more than any I've put together before or indeed heard) it bloody rocks. A footnote on the Logans, still a fantastic speaker and still does a couple of things even the Heco's can't. The 'special' presentation and imaging appearing from absolutely nowhere is still as addictive as it was the first time I heard a panel but overall I'm happy with the change to the Heco's. I might recap the Logans (they are approaching 20yrs old) and then do another comparison but I do suspect by then I won't be able to live without the more well rounded abilities of the Heco's. End game? Never say never . . . . but as close as I've heard to date. Thanks for reading. Fantastic write up, thank you, really enjoyed that! I've tussled with bass response issues in quite a few rooms and with different speakers over the years. 3-4 years ago I thought subs were for home cinemas, nightclubs and bass fanatics! 'I'm an audiophile', I thought, 'real bass should be done with a well setup pair of speakers'. And other thoughts like 'it's not possible to truly integrate a sub'... Well, that was then... Some three to four years on I am now a big advocate of using a sub and wouldn't be without it (or a pair). For me, in 3 different rooms, a sub (or pair) has been the only way I could achieve decent, well extended and textured bass. Room modes were always causing issues and using a sub(s) would, after a lot of setting up, pretty much solve these issues and make big improvements to bass. Rarely would I ever get more bass, just much better bass and way better control of peaks and nulls around the room. The biggest, and probably most important advantage of a sub is the difference it makes to the midrange, treble and soundstage. Once the sub is set up I would always get more body and realism to the midrange and treble, and a much deeper and larger soundstage. Switching the sub off causes an instant collapse of the soundstage and adds a slight harshness to the sound. Oh, and the bass get worse and often boomy with the sub off. It's ironic, because for me the sub has almost done the opposite to what I originally thought subs did. I thought subs were jaw dropping bass boom and impressing your mates by shaking the windows and making them feel sick! In reality, my sub has a much larger affect on everything upwards of 50Hz! Thanks again, and looking forward to your next upgrade!
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Post by macca on May 31, 2022 19:26:57 GMT
For most conventional speakers you should have them within 2 feet of the wall or at least 8 feet away (like I have mine). I forget exactly why but in between 2 and 8 feet is the death zone for bass. I don't know were you've heard this, how many times have I read, speakers should be placed 1 metre from the wall, right inside your death zone. My speakers are placed more than 2 feet from the wall and I am happy with how they sound at present. It's just a guidline not hard and fast rule. Rooms vary so much in construction and dimensions and speakers can vary a fair bit too. Doesn't matter how many times you've read '1 metre away', what about speakers specifically designed to be placed hard up against a wall? At least one meter from a side wall makes sense though. Mostly where it can be done like at shows where the room is a large they have them 8 foot or more out, as can be seen in many photos, since that's optimal for most speakers.
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optical
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Post by optical on May 31, 2022 19:28:10 GMT
ArkeNow someone's talking my language sir! It's a different dimension isn't it. Likewise been using subs on everything for 10yrs + now. This latest chapter has underlined exactly what they can do and what they're for. The effect they have on most of the frequency range is underrated by most.... But only because they haven't heard it setup properly I suspect. I'm very pleased someone understands my struggles at least but as you know the outcome thoroughly outweighs the means! (Of having to put subs in every system and spending ages getting them perfect!).
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Post by antonio on May 31, 2022 19:35:15 GMT
macca "I forget exactly why but in between 2 and 8 feet is the death zone for bass."That sounds like a hard and fast rule to me
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Post by Arke on May 31, 2022 19:46:32 GMT
ArkeNow someone's talking my language sir! It's a different dimension isn't it. Likewise been using subs on everything for 10yrs + now. This latest chapter has underlined exactly what they can do and what they're for. The effect they have on most of the frequency range is underrated by most.... But only because they haven't heard it setup properly I suspect. I'm very pleased someone understands my struggles at least but as you know the outcome thoroughly outweighs the means! (Of having to put subs in every system and spending ages getting them perfect!). Sadly, most subs are not setup well and they get a bad rep. I used to have 2 Rel subs and have now built one larger sub (build thread for sub coming soon). I sold the RELs to a friend and we spent 4 hours getting them properly set up in his system. He was frankly astonished at the difference, and was amazed they made such a big difference. He had massive issues with a room mode, so we lightly stuffed his ports to minimise their excitation of the mode and used the subs to fill in below. The difference was incredible - no more horrific room boom and much more well extended and controlled bass. Some tracks were simply unlistenable before, as the boom would just reverberate and smother out everything else. He thought he needed less bass, so was very sceptical about the subs. He was very quickly convinced that the two subs eliminated the boom and opened everything up.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 1, 2022 5:47:18 GMT
You're absolutely correct Arke, most times I've seen people using subs it has been set way too loud and with a gap in the crossover. They make a big boom but just cannot follow music with any accuracy. Likewise I've found REL's to be the only ones I've tried that are "quick" enough to be properly incorporated into an audiophile system where you only realise they're there when you switch them off! I had high hopes for an SVS one I tried but couldn't get anywhere near the coherence of two smaller ones. The REL's also did a good job of keeping up with the Quads I have owned, notoriously difficult to pair subs seamlessly with. It's been a pair for me too for the last few years, having left and right channels for the bass augmenting the speakers is really the only way to do it properly, as you clearly know! I'll be very interested to hear about your build and indeed any further developments regarding your subs. Great stuff.
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Post by Arke on Jun 1, 2022 10:22:23 GMT
I shall start my Sub build thread next week optical - there will no doubt be various discussions on setup and 2 vs 1 etc. on there too. My two REL t7i's were (and still are) fantastic - they integrated well and were fast and musical for relatively cheap subs. However, I changed my speakers a few years ago to 3 way floorstanders (build thread to come after sub!). The more recent DIY floorstanders dig almost as deep as the REL's and I didn't feel that the RELs were adding enough extension. The RELs definitely improved the sound, but I was pretty sure a sub(s) with a lower extension would be preferable. The REL's are rated to 30Hz at -6db and I ideally wanted a sub(s) that would dig well into the 20Hz region. Bit of a spoiler, but the new sub (even though just one) easily outperforms my two RELs. It definitely digs deeper and makes a much more noticeable improvement to soundstage. Setup is a funny one and so hard to get right. My RELs were actually setup quite differently to you... If anything the crossover point is quite low and the gain maybe a bit higher (definitely pretty conservative on gain though). I initially had my crossover higher and felt like I was getting too much overlap with some music. I contacted REL and one of their 'experts' replied and said "Almost 100% of the time, newcomers will set the crossover too high and the gain (volume level) too low". They advised me to start knocking the crossover down a few clicks at a time and increase the gain a little. After much experimentation I ended up with the crossover very low (1 or 2 clicks) on the RELs and gain at about 4 or 5 clicks. Gain was still extremely low, as the max was 39 clicks I believe. My new sub has a Hypex plate amp with DSP so I can tune it's performance reasonably well. I can tune it's response curve via a laptop and listen in real time from my listening position. It is actually crossing over in the low 30Hz and the speakers takeover from there. Many people are surprised that my sub is doing much from 32Hz downwards, as there are few instruments that go that deep. However, its seems to make a big difference as there is definitely a lot of low frequency ambient and spatial information that my RELs (and speakers) were simply missing. The new sub still makes a big difference on music with no obvious bass instruments (vocalist and guitar for example) as it seems to add a fair bit of ambient depth that I'd not been aware of previously. Anyway, I should stop nattering on... I could talk about subs all day. I shall start my sub build thread soon and it will no doubt contain more of my experimentation with setup.
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Post by optical on Jun 8, 2022 13:59:39 GMT
Lets recap . . . . So while my 'new' speakers are getting a run out I thought it was time to furnish my 'old' speakers (which I still retain a huge soft spot for), with some love. Some of these caps are nearly 20 years old so no doubt they'll benefit from being replaced. I went for direct replacements where possible. Solen caps always sound pretty good to me and more importantly are the exact same size as the ones they are replacing. I did think about going exotic/upgrading but since I've always been happy with the signature sound and tonal balance of the speakers anyway, it's best to stick with what is known to work. Unfortunately, I could only source a single Solen 20uF cap so had to switch to the JB JFX series which are known to have similar qualities to the Solens, so no real worries there. Also sometimes it is best to mix and match brands so maybe by happy coincidence and fate they will more than do the job. Not exactly the easiest of crossovers to work on. Delay lines/transformers/whatever well in the way and makes for a fairly shredded hand after removal of the caps . . . . Old caps out, new caps in. Interestingly I found that small parts of the circuit were not wired in exactly the same way. Obviously they were all connected to the same parts but some wires were tacked onto the circuit before some components on one crossover and after that component on the other. Obviously this won't really make any difference but for the sake of my OCD and possibly performance improvement (or at least symmetrical balance) they are now wired identically. The red wire is an absolute pig to solder to, tried to tin it as best I could to get a nice surface to flow onto, needless to say by the last one I'd nailed it . . . . always the way. In addition there was a bit of excess real estate as far as the in/out leads were concerned from the caps. On the new one's now installed they are more neatly trimmed and a bit less wire in the signal path. I also twisted and soldered the coaxial leads where possible . . . . just because I think it looks cool . . . . seen this on a few circuits actually, always makes sense when putting caps in series. Old caps will now be measured when I get a sec to see if anything was indeed amiss . . . . Both speakers now done . . . didn't actually take quite as long as I had anticipated . . . but it certainly wasn't a quick job . . . I'll be reconnecting these tonight so will let you know how they sound . . . if they switch on 😂 Cheers all.
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