Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 9, 2022 11:23:24 GMT
I count anything to do with the mains as foo. Except if there's some other device causing interference in the audio signal. Which is pretty rare. Even then fancy mains cables won't fix it. I agree it's a question of where you draw the line, I draw it a lot lower than you do since it isn't logical to draw it any higher. There are things that make real differences and things that don't. Everything that doesn't make a real difference is foo. If you can measure a change in the analogue output it's real (although still not necessarily audible), if you can't then it's foo. The worst place to be is between two camps. Someone who thinks 'grounding boxes' do something but scoffs at magic crystals or cable lifters. There's no logic to that. Surely the worst place to be is where it's ok to be declaring grounding boxes as foo, despite having never heard or tried one in one's system?
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 9, 2022 11:33:54 GMT
I count anything to do with the mains as foo. Except if there's some other device causing interference in the audio signal. Which is pretty rare. Even then fancy mains cables won't fix it. I agree it's a question of where you draw the line, I draw it a lot lower than you do since it isn't logical to draw it any higher. There are things that make real differences and things that don't. Everything that doesn't make a real difference is foo. If you can measure a change in the analogue output it's real (although still not necessarily audible), if you can't then it's foo. The worst place to be is between two camps. Someone who thinks 'grounding boxes' do something but scoffs at magic crystals or cable lifters. There's no logic to that. Some dangerously blanket statements in this. I've tried certain things, cables, valves, filters etc etc in my system over the years. Some made a difference, some did not. sometimes two of the same type eg two cables, one made a positive difference and one didn't (for whatever reason). It doesn't mean that the one that didn't is "foo", just that it didn't work for me in my system, nothing more nothing less. Real world listening and experience is EVERYTHING
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Post by macca on Jan 9, 2022 11:41:33 GMT
I count anything to do with the mains as foo. Except if there's some other device causing interference in the audio signal. Which is pretty rare. Even then fancy mains cables won't fix it. I agree it's a question of where you draw the line, I draw it a lot lower than you do since it isn't logical to draw it any higher. There are things that make real differences and things that don't. Everything that doesn't make a real difference is foo. If you can measure a change in the analogue output it's real (although still not necessarily audible), if you can't then it's foo. The worst place to be is between two camps. Someone who thinks 'grounding boxes' do something but scoffs at magic crystals or cable lifters. There's no logic to that. Surely the worst place to be is where it's ok to be declaring grounding boxes as foo, despite having never heard or tried one in one's system? they don't do anything so there's no need to try one. Judging the efficacy of products like that by listening to them (without any controls) is a mistake as placebo takes over and you'll start to think that it's doing something and then your wallet's out. This is why there is a huge market for that sort of thing, and even crazier stuff like magic crystals and special stickers to put on your magic fuse to make them even more magical. If something does not make a measurable difference at the output to the speakers then you can completely disregard it. There's no need to 'listen' to it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 9, 2022 11:45:55 GMT
Surely the worst place to be is where it's ok to be declaring grounding boxes as foo, despite having never heard or tried one in one's system? they don't do anything so there's no need to try one. Judging the efficacy of products like that by listening to them (without any controls) is a mistake as placebo takes over and you'll start to think that it's doing something and then your wallet's out. This is why there is a huge market for that sort of thing, and even crazier stuff like magic crystals and special stickers to put on your magic fuse to make them even more magical. If something does not make a measurable difference at the output to the speakers then you can completely disregard it. There's no need to 'listen' to it. I'm not having macca, and I'm not diverting yet another thread into debate about measurable output on the amplifier as the ONLY arbiter of influence, when it isn't.
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Post by macca on Jan 9, 2022 11:47:00 GMT
I count anything to do with the mains as foo. Except if there's some other device causing interference in the audio signal. Which is pretty rare. Even then fancy mains cables won't fix it. I agree it's a question of where you draw the line, I draw it a lot lower than you do since it isn't logical to draw it any higher. There are things that make real differences and things that don't. Everything that doesn't make a real difference is foo. If you can measure a change in the analogue output it's real (although still not necessarily audible), if you can't then it's foo. The worst place to be is between two camps. Someone who thinks 'grounding boxes' do something but scoffs at magic crystals or cable lifters. There's no logic to that. Some dangerously blanket statements in this. I've tried certain things, cables, valves, filters etc etc in my system over the years. Some made a difference, some did not. sometimes two of the same type eg two cables, one made a positive difference and one didn't (for whatever reason). It doesn't mean that the one that didn't is "foo", just that it didn't work for me in my system, nothing more nothing less. Real world listening and experience is EVERYTHING There's at least a possibility that signal cables or different valves will make a real difference. Listening in order to verify the efficacy of devices like power cables and grounding boxes etc requires controls. Otherwise you're quite likely to hear a difference when in reality there is none, and come to incorrect conclusions. Simpler just to look at tests of them where you can see right away that they are doing nothing.
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Post by romain on Jan 9, 2022 11:58:34 GMT
There is indubitably hifi products that are way too pricy for the (non) job they do. Also placebo effect is real in some cases. But one cannot say something doesn't work if he has not tested it, and even he has tested it in one room it doesn't give the whole picture. Because our environments are all different, mains quality, EMI, equipments, rooms differ between setups.
It's strange to see people say that if it's not measurable it's not real when Audio Precision the brand that produces 10k$ analyzers say that they are not able to measure some sound differences they ear.
I guess the way to go is blind testing
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 9, 2022 11:58:37 GMT
Some dangerously blanket statements in this. I've tried certain things, cables, valves, filters etc etc in my system over the years. Some made a difference, some did not. sometimes two of the same type eg two cables, one made a positive difference and one didn't (for whatever reason). It doesn't mean that the one that didn't is "foo", just that it didn't work for me in my system, nothing more nothing less. Real world listening and experience is EVERYTHING There's at least a possibility that signal cables or different valves will make a real difference. Listening in order to verify the efficacy of devices like power cables and grounding boxes etc requires controls. Otherwise you're quite likely to hear a difference when in reality there is none, and come to incorrect conclusions. Simpler just to look at tests of them where you can see right away that they are doing nothing. I was actually referencing those bits used in the power domains sorry for confusion, so power cables, rectifiers etc. Some people think rectifiers don't make a difference (as it's just converting voltage and the output is the "same".) But they do, big time. I agree your approach will save you a lot of time, effort and probably money but I can assure you there is more to be had, even from a well designed/engineered setup. If you're happy with your sound then that's fine, you e drawn the line as you say. Me, I have to try everything, I'll read the theory but so much theory is debunked/revised after it is assumed to be common knowledge that I'd rather find out for myself, it's the only real way. Different approaches are fine of course, but I completely trust my ears, some do not.
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Post by romain on Jan 9, 2022 12:07:59 GMT
I've always aimed to have the instruments and singers sound like they are in the room they were recorded in, rather than being in my room, but there's no right or wrong there. What's your amplification? Unless you have break up in the audio when appliances turn on and off I would not recommend spending any money on mains products, that's power cables, filters, regenerators, balanced mains etc, none of them do anything to improve sound quality. Yes I meant in the room they are recorded in, we aim the same thing I have a Benchmark AHB2 What is a break up ? I do hear a pop when my amplifier turns off (not when it's turning on)
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Post by misterc on Jan 9, 2022 12:15:51 GMT
Foo free aside for Martin's benefit HQ player is not for me psersonally, if you are going to upsample I would use hardware based solution as I find it just fleshes out the sound stage, usually delivering a larger more expansive sound scape. For myself it loses the overall cohesiveness and tradling note decay. A lot of headphone users swear by it I have one May left from the recent trafe backs, so this morning I revisted the question you asked.: The holo kit does need a lot of running in a solid 500 hours of use plus they need a decent warm up time just leave them on! From my experience the current crop of I2s data transfer hdmi interfaces are better suited to multiple channel high def Dolby Atmos style movements All of the I2s capable transports I have deliver a more how I would describe as laser focused, with more leading edge detail and ultra precise imaging. It is impressive when you first experience this. I ran the I2s formats in the Holo/Rockna/Grimm for many, many hours so I could rule out the unused imput syndrome. However the golden sound crew do like to use the 768khz facility which both Martin and Simon with totally pooh pooh this. Personally I just use the original sample rate and do not upsample Back to the May I use AES only for all my audio data transfer what ever the dac. The May nos I find too soft, and lacking in its ability to flow a natural flowing rhythm to the music being played. Sound stage is good but no where near the Wavedream. I just used a total stock Mutec and Audio Gd cant remember the exact model but it's around 1500 gbp reclockers using matching aes cables from transport to ddc to dac Easily noticeable changes which are repeatable much move even and open sound staging, lower noise floor, greater sense if ease to the sound coupled with improved macro dynamics and layering. The system I used for this is extremely well balanced has all areas of noise suppression possible encompassing, electrically ac common mode/dc and harmonics. Vibration both external acting non the system as a hole and internal vibration control on circuit boards and transformers. RF control both radiated and conducted emissions. So the system is very transparent before you select your equipment. Further advice I would give would be to employ the services of a professional acoustical engineer for a full real time analysis of your listening environment thiscwil help you understand what impossible in your room
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Post by antonio on Jan 9, 2022 12:25:34 GMT
That has not been my experience at all. except that time you brought your amps and DAC around to mine and had a listen to them in a foo-free system? Speakers and room mate, it's 99 percent of it. You would have been gobsmacked then Macca if you could have heard what one mains cable did to my brothers system. I'm in total agreement regarding room and speakers making the most difference, but everything, amps, cdp, tt, cables also make a difference. Would you be better spending 2k extra on speakers, absolutely if your speakers cost up to 10k, but what if your speakers cost 30k, you maybe better investing your 2k on speaker/mains cables.
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 9, 2022 13:36:27 GMT
You have me wrong Tony, I'd never state that filters and upsampling can't make an audible difference. The maths and measured proof is inescapable.
Are some people with 60 year old ears kidding themselves that it's audible to them, probably?
Power cables of sufficient thickness with decent clean tight connections, no.
Grounding boxes, well I've yet to see proof of one reducing noise...
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Post by macca on Jan 10, 2022 8:20:57 GMT
I've always aimed to have the instruments and singers sound like they are in the room they were recorded in, rather than being in my room, but there's no right or wrong there. What's your amplification? Unless you have break up in the audio when appliances turn on and off I would not recommend spending any money on mains products, that's power cables, filters, regenerators, balanced mains etc, none of them do anything to improve sound quality. Yes I meant in the room they are recorded in, we aim the same thing I have a Benchmark AHB2 What is a break up ? I do hear a pop when my amplifier turns off (not when it's turning on) break up - meaning if your refrigerator or another appliance switching on or off makes a noise through your speakers. Amps making a noise on switch on or off is nothing to worry about. Your amp allows you a fairly wide choice of speakers, you can improve on what you have, no question.
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Post by romain on Jan 12, 2022 21:17:24 GMT
I just used the book "Audiophile's guide : the stereo" from Paul from PS Audio with the CD downloaded from their website and while I was tweaking the position of the speakers I also tried removing some stuff that was between the speakers and it made a huge difference in soundstage precision ! I didn't thought so because the stuff was a little below the speakers but now I can see every instrument just behind the speakers so it's much better already, it's not flat anymore ! The book is very useful to understand the impact of each parameter (listening position, speaker separation and toe in, etc.), the tracks are calibrated so it's easy to know what to look for while moving things around.
The Dynaudio Special 40 are already very good, now that the soundstage is pretty much fixed maybe I can wait to have a bigger room and then buy columns.
I have tried the PS Audio P12 for 2 hours in a showroom, and I noticed a difference in sound (with even as low as 1.5% THD in mains detected by the P12). To me the music with the P12 was very less shouty, very less fatiguing, it felt like the timings of the transient were more precise, less blurry, that gave a cleaner, smoother sound. But also I felt that the music was less engaging with it, less punchy, less foot taping, the timbre less realistic, I wonder if the reason is because the P12 doesn't filter above 1khz and is rejecting it's own high frequency noise into the mains (like any transformer) and that hurts the timbre. I am waiting to receive a Plixir (balanced isolation transformer) that should reduce a lot the common noise, and I will test it in combination with the P12 to see if that helps
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Post by romain on Jan 13, 2022 0:58:22 GMT
Has anyone tried power treatment with the Spring or May and can share his experience if it made a difference?
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Post by antonio on Jan 13, 2022 2:59:11 GMT
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Post by romain on Jan 13, 2022 9:38:46 GMT
Interesting product, the different outputs seem to be have some isolation from each other which is a nice feature to have, but not really the same purpose of a P12. The P12 will deal with voltage fluctuation and sine wave reconstruction (low frequency), where the Puritan will filter high frequency (>500hz) noise. So it's more comparable to the Plixir, with the Plixir having the benefit to output balanced power which seems to be a very efficient technology to filter high frequency common noise (but less isolation between ouputs i guess) I'm not sure which kind of treatment is more important though or how it influences the sound, and I haven't read anything about how the Spring or May can benefit from it (if their power supply do some filtering already or not) but I will report when I have tested it
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Post by macca on Jan 13, 2022 11:00:59 GMT
All power supplies filter noise and convert AC to DC, if they don't filter it will be obvious in measurements. Of course the power supply in the equipment can bleed noise itself but that shouldn't happen in any competent design and again will show up on measurement. In short you don't need to do anything except stop listening to Paul McGowan He's a good salesman, I respect that. Not so good for giving genuine advice though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 13, 2022 11:02:14 GMT
All power supplies filter noise and convert AC to DC, if they don't filter it will be obvious in measurements. Of course the power supply in the equipment can bleed noise itself but that shouldn't happen in any competent design and again will show up on measurement. In short you don't need to do anything except stop listening to Paul McGowan He's a good salesman, I respect that. Not so good for giving genuine advice though. Amen!
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Post by romain on Jan 13, 2022 12:40:48 GMT
I noticed that some advice are over simplified to meet his agenda. I listen to everyone, try to find some scientific proof when possible and make my own opinion after some testing I like both the objective and subjective approach
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 13, 2022 13:11:59 GMT
I noticed that some advice are over simplified to meet his agenda. I listen to everyone, try to find some scientific proof when possible and make my own opinion after some testing I like both the objectivist and subjectivist approach Thats the right approach. 100%
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Post by macca on Jan 13, 2022 13:38:25 GMT
subjective for me is just the final confirmation. All the equipment should work well together based on the measured performance.
If I put it all together and don't enjoy what I'm hearing, then I have a re-think. If you don't like it then it's wrong regardless of what it should do on paper. No argument from me there.
Usually if that happens there's something wrong technically that I've overlooked or for which I couldn't find any data so decided to wing it.
I think a good starting point is to understand that the vast majority of recordings sound from very good to amazing, the only thing that can ruin that is the equipment you replay them through. The equipment can only ruin that great sound that is there on the recording, it cannot improve on it.
So trust the engineers and the artists and aim for as accurate a replay as possible. The best equipment imparts the least signature of its own.
That's why I think it odd that people concentrate on the 'sound' of the equipment asking 'What does that amp sound like?' 'What does that DAC sound like?'
I don't want my equipment to have its own sound! I just want to hear the sound of the recording.
Otherwise you put the cart before the horse. The result is you end up complaining about recording quality and are reduced to listening only to showcase recordings as they are the only ones that sound any good.
Anytime you see someone saying 'As I've upgraded my system I've really started to notice how bad most recordings are' then they've gone badly wrong in their approach.
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Post by romain on Jan 13, 2022 16:19:42 GMT
I've also taken the "don't color / don't do harm" approach when buying my equipments like the Benchmark AHB2, a very neutral amp.
It looks like it's easier to take a very measurement-focused approach when looking for amps and pre-amps but it's much more difficult for DACs and speakers, don't you think? Because you don't have an analogue point of reference for DACs to know if it's neutral and "real", and for speakers I don't see what measurement can be used to caracterize the "realness" of the sound. It looks like flat frequency response and good phase response don't take us very far as a lot of speakers can have good responses.
Currently I try to find new speakers and I really don't know what to look for measurement-wise, any idea?
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Post by macca on Jan 13, 2022 17:30:55 GMT
I think it is pretty easy with DACs too but speakers are a different kettle of fish. In theory you want flat anechoic frequency responses, wide horizontal and (ideally) vertical dispersion, and off axis response that mirrors the on axis response. Then you stick them in a multi-purpose room where you can't use treatments and you can't position them optimally and it all goes to hell. Even given a sorted, treated room those speakers will still only satisfy 75% of people because 1 in 4 of us have a different idea about how they want their music to sound. I like how my set up sounds but I can think of a few people I know who would not be that keen on it, who wouldn't be able to live with it. We don't all want the same thing and given that speakers by far have the most influence on the presentation there's no one size fits all. All I can say with any certainty is that a good three-way will always be better than a good two-way and a good big 'un will always be better than a good small 'un. And there's even some exceptions to that. I think if you can find a good three-way stand mounter you'd get a worthwhile improvement over what you have. They are starting to come back in fashion Check these out www.stereophile.com/content/klh-model-five-loudspeaker
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Post by macca on Jan 13, 2022 17:39:25 GMT
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Post by romain on Jan 13, 2022 17:50:34 GMT
Ok, thank you for the help, I'll try to look at (and understand) these measurements, new weights to use in the balance Unfortunately, given the configuration of my room, I can't have speakers wider than 25-30cm (1 foot), and I need to be able to control the bass (bass traps can't absorb everything I throw at them and the wall with the neighbor is thinner than rolling paper). So I need to be careful when choosing floorstanding speakers.
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Post by macca on Jan 13, 2022 19:42:33 GMT
Those speakers I linked to don't have deep bass, they don't go any deeper than what you have now.
They are 13.75 inches wide though so too wide.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 13, 2022 20:35:26 GMT
Ok, thank you for the help, I'll try to look at (and understand) these measurements, new weights to use in the balance Unfortunately, given the configuration of my room, I can't have speakers wider than 25-30cm (1 foot), and I need to be able to control the bass (bass traps can't absorb everything I throw at them and the wall with the neighbor is thinner than rolling paper). So I need to be careful when choosing floorstanding speakers. Townshend seismic bars/platforms have enable me to have bigger speakers. I have a floor that gets hyperactive with bass, so they have been a real bonus.
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Post by romain on Jan 13, 2022 23:04:50 GMT
Have to confess I am only up to page 150 but as textbooks go its not dryly written and has a lot of good info based on decades of serious research. 150 pages ! That's some dedication !
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 14, 2022 7:43:41 GMT
I've always picked up a good instruction manual over a 'book' . . . . . My parents were a little worried when they came home and found me reading through the manual for my dad's Blaupunkt car stereo rather than the "Goosebumps" series which everyone else was reading at the time . . . . This looks very interesting Macca.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 14, 2022 7:57:45 GMT
I noticed that some advice are over simplified to meet his agenda. I listen to everyone, try to find some scientific proof when possible and make my own opinion after some testing I like both the objectivist and subjectivist approach Thats the right approach. 100% It is, absolutely. I've found myself disagreeing completely with some advice from very well respected (and indeed 'proven') approaches to setting up hifi and all the 'ancillaries' that go with it. If it sounds right it ain't wrong, is my approach. It's not a major concern to me if I think it sounds like how 'I think' it should when it was recorded in the studio? I don't really see how that's possible unless you are literally using the same equipment?? My point is there's no one who can tell you if that's how it was supposed to sound or not (apart from having the artist sit there and go, "yeah mate that's spot on actually, another cuppa?" ). I agree having a neutral system with equipment that doesn't draw attention to itself (and measures well) is a very sensible way of achieving what you want though. All that aside, my goal is to have my system thrill me to bits every time I listen, whatever I'm listening to. If that introduces a bit of 'colour' or 'sheen' to some recordings so be it, (I don't want it to necessarily but I'm not going to lose sleep if it appears either side of 'neutral'.) I like my system to bring a bit of character to the performance, probably why I can't say goodbye to all my valve equipment just yet . . . . . I know I'm in the minority here and I'm not talking Audio Note levels of 'mushyness/colour' but I don't mind a sprinkling of personality in my equipment. . . . . at least I don't think I do . . . haha
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