Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 17, 2020 7:53:42 GMT
Good morning all, As some of you may remember, i recently enlisted the help of Angus to install a new PSU in the Neurochrome 686. Since then, and i am not afraid to admit it, something hasnt been sitting quite as well with me about how it sounded. Initially the improvements it made were ear catching and quite honesty they were impressive, but extended listening over the last few weeks has highlighted something that was there before that was now missing. It's hard to describe, but jimbo hit the nail on the head in a conversation we had recently. "the Neurochrome is almost between solid state and valve" He was right. The 686 was missing some of that soul that had me raving about it since purchasing it. I even ventured off into valve amps to try and recover it! Oddly, the move to the PrimaLuna Prologue Five proved way more of a success than i could have hoped for and just prior to it's way out of my system, my house and my life (for now) ......it gave me one more gift... It's mains cable. The Primaluna came with an "audiophile" mains cable. I hadn't taken much notice of it in all fairness but noticed that it was a 3x 4mm Shielded affair, rather than my usual 2,5mm Belden stuff. Whilst swapping the amplifiers over to audition the new valves in the Bigbottle, i just plumbed the PrimaLuna mains cable into the back of my 686..... Well, Sh#t the bed! the change in weight, fullness of tone and delivery was very evident. I thought....Christ! these valves are good! Then a delivery of some 6N2P-EV valves arrived and i tried a couple out, but they too sounded rather epic. Something was different. Wracking my brain for 10 minutes, i swapped back to the PL5 and the PL5 sounded the same as it always has. Back to the 686 and yep, it definitely sounded better than it did prior to today. Then it clicked.....try the belden cable. SO i plugged it in and sure enough, it changed back to how the 686 had been sounding and definitely not like how it sounded with the Kabel (it's all thats printed on it). How odd.. I tried the Belden with the PL5 and the PL% seemed impervious to the change. Regardless of how many swaps i did, the 686 always sounded better with the Kabel. I have no idea as to why this is the case, other than the Torroid wants more juice than the Belden was giving it and somehow strangling it, and the larger conductors of the Kabel are able to supply it better? I am not sure, but it's just another little reminder that sometimes the last thing you think of can be the difference. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 11:25:55 GMT
You need to try the Neotech OCC mains cable as well.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 17, 2020 11:37:58 GMT
Good result and maybe a new direction of cable interest? I did a lot of valuation some time back with cables on my power amp and preamp and the results were surprising. Power amps certainly do benefit from an upgrade in cable especially shielded larger section cable. My preamp did not get on well with a bigger cable and sounded better with a standard core size but did improve with a shielded cable. I compared these 'Audiophile' cables to standard kettle cables.
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 17, 2020 11:58:00 GMT
Maybe more psu cappage? I have 8x 22,000uf in mine.
Did you put an inlet filter on it?
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 17, 2020 13:27:07 GMT
Maybe more psu cappage? I have 8x 22,000uf in mine. Did you put an inlet filter on it? More PSU caps would be hard to fit in to be honest. More in reserve would be handy i suppose but there must be a tradeoff? We did not put an inlet filter on it or any speaker protection as we simply ran out of time. Also, i can't find any speaker protection that wont compromise the SQ so i am still looking atm |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 17, 2020 16:30:35 GMT
A smps will be immune to hf noise on the mains, by design. A linear supply, not so much.
Sounds like you've found a solution though, I run 3x3mm cores in the cables to my amps, no fancy plugs.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 17, 2020 17:40:43 GMT
A smps will be immune to hf noise on the mains, by design. A linear supply, not so much. Sounds like you've found a solution though, I run 3x3mm cores in the cables to my amps, no fancy plugs. I do have a high power filter. I may drop it in. Proper heavy duty, no Chinese nonsense. |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 17, 2020 20:30:02 GMT
Ive finally got my dc filter in line, gotta case it up with dual trailing outlets.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 17, 2020 20:40:54 GMT
Ive finally got my dc filter in line, gotta case it up with dual trailing outlets. DC blocker or filter or is that the same thing? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 6:00:03 GMT
You need to try the Neotech OCC mains cable as well. I use this - link |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 6:48:31 GMT
You need to try the Neotech OCC mains cable as well. Neotech for the Mains? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 6:49:12 GMT
Good result and maybe a new direction of cable interest? I did a lot of valuation some time back with cables on my power amp and preamp and the results were surprising. Power amps certainly do benefit from an upgrade in cable especially shielded larger section cable. My preamp did not get on well with a bigger cable and sounded better with a standard core size but did improve with a shielded cable. I compared these 'Audiophile' cables to standard kettle cables. I have an interesting cable in mind to try on the mains bit at £40pm it's on the back burner. We will see what happens. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 6:49:52 GMT
You need to try the Neotech OCC mains cable as well. I use this - linkWow.....that's not cheap lol Looks good though. |
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 18, 2020 8:19:35 GMT
I've used a wide variety of 'audiophile' mains cables over the years, including some well into 3 figure cost.
I'm settled now on Belden 19364, it's better than anything else I've tried. I use it all round.
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 18, 2020 8:25:10 GMT
Oli, sjostrom dct03 blocker and a fofelix.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 8:28:53 GMT
I've used a wide variety of 'audiophile' mains cables over the years, including some well into 3 figure cost. I'm settled now on Belden 19364, it's better than anything else I've tried. I use it all round. That's what I use Jerry, on everything but the amplifier changed when I used the Kabel stuff....for the better. I am not saying it's anything to do with the mains lead either, just that it happened. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 8:29:03 GMT
Oli, sjostrom dct03 blocker and a fofelix. Cool....I'm googling lol |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 18, 2020 11:43:10 GMT
Don't forget the plug makes a difference as well Oli. Think IC's. You would not stick any old plug on the end of a Spotfire cable, same goes for mains cable.
Probably good idea to get a few and try - both ends?
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Post by jandl100 on Sept 18, 2020 11:57:14 GMT
I've used a wide variety of 'audiophile' mains cables over the years, including some well into 3 figure cost. I'm settled now on Belden 19364, it's better than anything else I've tried. I use it all round. That's what I use Jerry, on everything but the amplifier changed when I used the Kabel stuff....for the better. I am not saying it's anything to do with the mains lead either, just that it happened. Hmm, OK. Interesting! I'll stay with the Belden, I've been round the block with mains cables any number of times and I know I always come back to it! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 13:28:16 GMT
Have a chat to Mr Brook, and see if he will let you trial one of these, already made? link |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 18, 2020 14:00:55 GMT
Have a chat to Mr Brook, and see if he will let you trial one of these, already made? linkGood shout - this is where I go for Mains cable - he does some great stuff and will build whatever you want. |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 18, 2020 14:02:17 GMT
That's what I use Jerry, on everything but the amplifier changed when I used the Kabel stuff....for the better. I am not saying it's anything to do with the mains lead either, just that it happened. Hmm, OK. Interesting! I'll stay with the Belden, I've been round the block with mains cables any number of times and I know I always come back to it! I should try some of that Jerry. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 14:37:04 GMT
That's what I use Jerry, on everything but the amplifier changed when I used the Kabel stuff....for the better. I am not saying it's anything to do with the mains lead either, just that it happened. Hmm, OK. Interesting! I'll stay with the Belden, I've been round the block with mains cables any number of times and I know I always come back to it! I am certainly not suggesting you try it, as i actually think it's an inferior cable on spec. For instance the shield only covers 80% of the cable so if you have good results with the Belden, as i do, leave well alone. It was only a fluke that i tried the Kabel. |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 18, 2020 14:49:39 GMT
Shielding a mains cable is fine if you run them alongside your signal cables, but its there for the signal cable, not to stop the mains cable picking up radiated noise, they just don't, and even if they could it aint getting through the transformer in the psu.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 14:53:43 GMT
Have a chat to Mr Brook, and see if he will let you trial one of these, already made? linkThis is one rabbit hole i am very reluctant to go down, for one simple reason......There is only one destinantion. The Consumer Unit. I am a huge believer in the use of UP-OCC/PC-OCC/Single Mono Crystal for the Audio signal, as apart from the PCB and Socketed connections, you can pretty much use OCC throughout the whole chain. Source to Speakers. What you cant do, is use OCC any further than your nearest wall socket. So travelling up 1m of UP-OCC mains cable is gonna make earth shattering differences to my system, when the 240v has come a shitty substation in cheap ass nasty cable, through the noisy consumer unit and travelled around my ring main? I just find that hard to accept if i am being 100% honest. And i am no cable nay-sayer. What i strongly suspect WILLmake a difference is the shielding of the Mains cable from RF and shileding the signal cables from the noisy mains cables in your rack. Conductor cross section size will make a difference too, and it was on this principle that i looked into mains cables some time back. 2.5mm cables seemed to have the best sound for me, with the 4mm and 6mm geting a bit fat....or too full in the midbass. Funnily enough, this happened today with the 4mm Kabel. I noticed a very minor emphasis of the midbass. Something which dissapeared when i put the Belden Back in. Admittedly, the Kabel went back in because i think it sounds better overall, but i am now looking into other mains cables to see whether there is a 4mm conductor cable with a better shield available. I have access to a cable which is absolutely ideal for mains use. It's OCC, It's ultra Pure too. Maybe i should buy a bit and see how it gets on. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 16:33:44 GMT
How can you get purer than pure?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 16:48:08 GMT
Have a chat to Mr Brook, and see if he will let you trial one of these, already made? linkThis is one rabbit hole i am very reluctant to go down, for one simple reason......There is only one destinantion. The Consumer Unit. I am a huge believer in the use of UP-OCC/PC-OCC/Single Mono Crystal for the Audio signal, as apart from the PCB and Socketed connections, you can pretty much use OCC throughout the whole chain. Source to Speakers. What you cant do, is use OCC any further than your nearest wall socket. So travelling up 1m of UP-OCC mains cable is gonna make earth shattering differences to my system, when the 240v has come a shitty substation in cheap ass nasty cable, through the noisy consumer unit and travelled around my ring main? I just find that hard to accept if i am being 100% honest. And i am no cable nay-sayer. What i strongly suspect WILLmake a difference is the shielding of the Mains cable from RF and shileding the signal cables from the noisy mains cables in your rack. Conductor cross section size will make a difference too, and it was on this principle that i looked into mains cables some time back. 2.5mm cables seemed to have the best sound for me, with the 4mm and 6mm geting a bit fat....or too full in the midbass. Funnily enough, this happened today with the 4mm Kabel. I noticed a very minor emphasis of the midbass. Something which dissapeared when i put the Belden Back in. Admittedly, the Kabel went back in because i think it sounds better overall, but i am now looking into other mains cables to see whether there is a 4mm conductor cable with a better shield available. I have access to a cable which is absolutely ideal for mains use. It's OCC, It's ultra Pure too. Maybe i should buy a bit and see how it gets on. You don’t have UP-OCC throughout your signal chain, and you have heard the difference it makes adding a bit amongst the other parts of the chain that are not UP-OCC. Why won’t mains have an effect? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 16:58:11 GMT
This is one rabbit hole i am very reluctant to go down, for one simple reason......There is only one destinantion. The Consumer Unit. I am a huge believer in the use of UP-OCC/PC-OCC/Single Mono Crystal for the Audio signal, as apart from the PCB and Socketed connections, you can pretty much use OCC throughout the whole chain. Source to Speakers. What you cant do, is use OCC any further than your nearest wall socket. So travelling up 1m of UP-OCC mains cable is gonna make earth shattering differences to my system, when the 240v has come a shitty substation in cheap ass nasty cable, through the noisy consumer unit and travelled around my ring main? I just find that hard to accept if i am being 100% honest. And i am no cable nay-sayer. What i strongly suspect WILLmake a difference is the shielding of the Mains cable from RF and shileding the signal cables from the noisy mains cables in your rack. Conductor cross section size will make a difference too, and it was on this principle that i looked into mains cables some time back. 2.5mm cables seemed to have the best sound for me, with the 4mm and 6mm geting a bit fat....or too full in the midbass. Funnily enough, this happened today with the 4mm Kabel. I noticed a very minor emphasis of the midbass. Something which dissapeared when i put the Belden Back in. Admittedly, the Kabel went back in because i think it sounds better overall, but i am now looking into other mains cables to see whether there is a 4mm conductor cable with a better shield available. I have access to a cable which is absolutely ideal for mains use. It's OCC, It's ultra Pure too. Maybe i should buy a bit and see how it gets on. You don’t have UP-OCC throughout your signal chain, and you have heard the difference it makes adding a bit amongst the other parts of the chain that are not UP-OCC. Why won’t mains have an effect? I don't think it wont have *ANY* effect, i just dont think the differences in main cable lie in th ecopper, whereas in the signal cables, it makes sense to use the best copper possible. Personally, the biggest difference to anything mains related i have experienced was the introduction of a BMU. It far eclipsed any Mains cable for impact on the sound quality. Although i freely admit that the left side of my dual wall socket sounds better with the amp, Shielded cable improves sound quality, and using clean contacts for the power suppy all make a difference, i just don't think OCC cable is necessary for that 1m from the wall to amplifier link, although i am happy to be proved wrong. If MCRU want to throw a cable at me to try, i am happy to eat my words. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 17:02:58 GMT
How can you get purer than pure? It's all in the N's |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 17:18:36 GMT
There is no “n” in pure.
It is either pure, or it isn’t. I reckon it is just marketing BS.
With the 6n’s something is approaching pure, but it still has impurities in it.
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