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Post by jimbo on Mar 6, 2020 12:26:12 GMT
Your opinion and conclusions are obviously different to mine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 13:23:27 GMT
There is a technical reason why file based audio can sound better than CD. The sample rate of the file. It can be less compressed than the CD, and sound more natural.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 6, 2020 15:14:47 GMT
I have two CD Playing machines here, a Sony one Macca gave me, which has been performing faultlessly in the garage, and a Samsung DVD player, whichnis a fair few years old.
The Samsung sounds unbelievable, for a CD player but falls down against the PecanPi.
It's all about what you want at the end of the day.
I dont doubt that some of the big boy CD players are fitted with a more than capable mechanism, PSU and DAC bit I cant help but thinking that there can only be benefit from removing moving parts.
If its mechanical, it can quite easily miss a beat.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 6, 2020 15:15:39 GMT
I have two CD Playing machines here, a Sony one Macca gave me, which has been performing faultlessly in the garage, and a Samsung DVD player, whichnis a fair few years old.
The Samsung sounds unbelievable, for a CD player but falls down against the PecanPi.
It's all about what you want at the end of the day.
I dont doubt that some of the big boy CD players are fitted with a more than capable mechanism, PSU and DAC bit I cant help but thinking that there can only be benefit from removing moving parts.
If its mechanical, it can quite easily miss a beat.
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Post by macca on Mar 6, 2020 15:23:50 GMT
Your opinion and conclusions are obviously different to mine. yes bit we new that already I think I have given some valid reasons why casual comparisons can be flawed.
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Post by macca on Mar 6, 2020 15:28:31 GMT
There is a technical reason why file based audio can sound better than CD. The sample rate of the file. It can be less compressed than the CD, and sound more natural. Nothing to do with the sample rate but you are correct in that different masterings of the same album can have widely varying dynamic ranges. That's my point about making sure that in comparisons it is apples vs apples. It isn't unusual for the 'hi rez' version to have much lower dynamic range, example here dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=YES&album=TALES+FROM+TOPOGRAPHIC+OCEANS the SACD is by far the poorest mastering from a DR perspective. When streaming you often don't know what you are getting. One of the reasons I prefer to continue with CD where I know exactly which mastering I'm listening to.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2020 21:33:45 GMT
Ha!
Sneaky installment of the Jimblog I see.
Forums are instrumental in this hobby. I dont think most of us would be anywhere the level we are at now, without them
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Post by jimbo on Mar 13, 2020 21:45:56 GMT
Ha! Sneaky installment of the Jimblog I see. Forums are instrumental in this hobby. I dont think most of us would be anywhere the level we are at now, without them And I am sure this forum will become one of them!
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Post by macca on Mar 23, 2020 13:30:09 GMT
I shared your experience with CD back in 1989 doing 2 back to back comparison with the respective vinyl versions on 2 different systems. There was no comparison, the CD sound sucked. Consequently I did not get a CD player until 1996 when releases on vinyl began to stop.
However I now have a Marantz cd 54 from 1984 here which I bought expressly for the purpose of testing the theory that early players were cack. Have played BIA (and many other albums) on it a few times, no 'broken glass' sound. Sounds very pleasant in fact.
I'm still at a loss as to why CD sounded so crap back then but I've demonstrated to my own satisfaction that whatever the issue was, it was not the early cd players that were to blame.
BTW - A QUAD 33 pre-amp will overload with a 2V input from a CD player, they were designed way back before any source had such high output. So you would get some pretty nasty clipping. I assume that you had it modified before trying it with CD?
Although there have been a number of technical improvements in digital over the years jitter and its consequences were fully understood back before CD even came out. None of the early machines have even close to audible levels of jitter whereas even the best turntable system will have jitter several orders of magnitude above even the worst digital source, and it will be worse on warped discs or those pressed off-centre. Can we hear it? Can we bugger.
ironically you will almost certainly have been getting much higher levels of jitter by using the CD player with an off-board DAC; that you felt this was an improvement is pretty good empirical proof that jitter was not responsible for the poor sound from the stand-alone player.
Regrettably marketing departments tend to seize on buzz words like jitter in order to sell the latest and greatest products, and lazy hi-fi journalists swallow this stuff without questioning or doing any research, and so sadly the myths prevail.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 23, 2020 13:46:46 GMT
Apart from macca, has anyone heard a CD104 today? It's a bit 'dead' and maybe a little 'grubby' compared to current digital, but there should be some bass 'bounce' to it. My copy of Brothers in Arms is original (channels inverted over the original vinyl cut and not sure which is right) and sounds just fine today. I keep saying it, but it was the state of many smaller stereos being all edge and sharpness for vinyl of the period that killed early CD for many. It took a long time for the audiophile fratermity to come round. Owners of Quad-n-Spendor type systems never ever had an issue I remember!
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Post by jandl100 on Mar 23, 2020 14:50:27 GMT
I recall being in the wonderful Ben's Collectors Records in Guildford, probably 20-25 odd years ago, (is Ben's still going?) and there was a fellow customer who found CD totally unlistenable because of the "high pitched whistling" that he always heard with it. Wtf? Presumably something wrong with his system.
But yes, it sounds like Jimbo's system was well-tuned to his vinyl, so no great surprise that it sounded 'off' with a more neutral source.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 23, 2020 15:18:07 GMT
Apart from macca, has anyone heard a CD104 today? It's a bit 'dead' and maybe a little 'grubby' compared to current digital, but there should be some bass 'bounce' to it. My copy of Brothers in Arms is original (channels inverted over the original vinyl cut and not sure which is right) and sounds just fine today. I keep saying it, but it was the state of many smaller stereos being all edge and sharpness for vinyl of the period that killed early CD for many. It took a long time for the audiophile fratermity to come round. Owners of Quad-n-Spendor type systems never ever had an issue I remember! Would be interesting to hear one of those very early CD players again to see how far we have come. I expect Martin has some golden oldies that sound fine?
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Post by firebottle on Mar 23, 2020 16:10:57 GMT
The CD104 is shite. I have a friend in Edinburgh who still uses one, it's thin and strident.
The brick wall filters used in the early machines did no favours to the sound, thank goodness for improved digital filtering.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 23, 2020 16:15:57 GMT
The CD104 is shite. I have a friend in Edinburgh who still uses one, it's thin and strident. The brick wall filters used in the early machines did no favours to the sound, thank goodness for improved digital filtering. So my ears were correct way back then.
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 23, 2020 17:39:23 GMT
I have a cd 104 that has been recapped, like for like across the board. It's a little lacking in sparkle, but far from being strident.
I'd love to rehouse the mech as a transport only, fit and xmos 208 to it. Eventually.
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Post by macca on Mar 23, 2020 18:22:34 GMT
Apart from macca, has anyone heard a CD104 today? It's a bit 'dead' and maybe a little 'grubby' compared to current digital, but there should be some bass 'bounce' to it. My copy of Brothers in Arms is original (channels inverted over the original vinyl cut and not sure which is right) and sounds just fine today. I keep saying it, but it was the state of many smaller stereos being all edge and sharpness for vinyl of the period that killed early CD for many. It took a long time for the audiophile fratermity to come round. Owners of Quad-n-Spendor type systems never ever had an issue I remember! Would be interesting to hear one of those very early CD players again to see how far we have come. I expect Martin has some golden oldies that sound fine? Loads of them but the Marantz CD54 is the earliest one I have. I've got about 50 albums on both CD and vinyl, there's a couple where the vinyl is so much better. But for most of them I prefer the CD. Leaving aside those systems that were tuned for analogue, and older amps that would clip with a 2 volt signal, I do think it is to an extent a question of what you are used to. I sort of weaned myself on to CD over a decade or so, once the lack of new releases on vinyl forced my hand. Over time I started to appreciate what CD did well, and started to notice the deficiencies in vinyl. Then when Jerry lent my the Tisbury passive pre that was a revelation with CD. I realised that the 'pure, perfect sound forever' slogan was not the joke we had all taken it for. It was the amplification, not the medium that was the problem. The clarity and the purity of tone was something else. That was when I really slipped over to the dark side. Then with the DCB1- Krell KSA50s combo - my god! I really wish one of you had been around to hear that. You'd change your mind about CD after just one bar of music.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 23, 2020 18:28:18 GMT
The CD104 is shite. I have a friend in Edinburgh who still uses one, it's thin and strident. The brick wall filters used in the early machines did no favours to the sound, thank goodness for improved digital filtering. I compared my Meridian MCD pro to a 104 and the 104 I heard wasn't thin and strident at all, although there were two versions, the late cheaper model losing mains filtering and so on as hidden cost savings. Most suffer terrible dry joints as do a lot of Philips 80's CD stuff, so maybe not many working today. What these old players DO suffer from I gather, is ultrasonic and rf Sh#t coming out down the signal cables (inner and screen I was told) that many amps couldn't and some still cannot handle, plus the tendency to either be sensitive to, or spitting out, Sh#t from the mains, calling for a high quality high current filter to be used. This is how I got the ferrite habit as well as 6A Roxburgh filters - these barely make a difference now as our mains is quite good and doesn't vary as it did when we lived in Luton.
The first two CD players that got me seriously interested were the 104 derived Mission DAD 7000 and the attractive funky B&O CD-X, both needing an hour to 'warm up' and sonically open out. The MCD-pro was a re-working on this basic tech.
Your mileage may well vary from this, but old CD players don't seem to scream as they once appeared to and the Sony 101, despite being dead in terms of reverb reproduction, still sounded good last I heard one.
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Post by firebottle on Mar 23, 2020 18:31:23 GMT
Macca said 'You'd change your mind about CD after just one bar of music.' Crap! I'm not saying you don't have an excellent sound as I have heard the DCB1 and Krell amplification, but with a top notch phono stage and cartridge you can't just bin the sound from vinyl. All IMO and YMMV.
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Post by macca on Mar 23, 2020 18:32:43 GMT
I did have fairly long listen to a Sony CDP101, many years ago now. Unfamiliar room and system (Halfler/Harman Kardon amplification and Radford speakers) but I thought it was pretty good.
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Post by macca on Mar 23, 2020 18:43:21 GMT
Crap! I'm not saying you don't have an excellent sound as I have heard the DCB1 and Krell amplification, but with a top notch phono stage and cartridge you can't just bin the sound from vinyl. All IMO and YMMV. What is this aimed at me? Hey don't get me wrong I have sat entranced by vinyl systems many times. If you make the right choices and aren't afraid to fork out some cash it can be sublime. I'm not knocking vinyl, I'm defending CD. I think all of us who did those comparisons back when CD was fairly new jumped to the wrong conclusion. I mean we heard what we heard but we incorrectly blamed it on the medium. In my defence I was young and knew nothing.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 23, 2020 18:46:11 GMT
Macca said 'You'd change your mind about CD after just one bar of music.' Crap! I'm not saying you don't have an excellent sound as I have heard the DCB1 and Krell amplification, but with a top notch phono stage and cartridge you can't just bin the sound from vinyl. All IMO and YMMV. Is this missing a quote? I don't know whats going on lol
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Post by firebottle on Mar 23, 2020 18:51:46 GMT
Yes I edited too severely, corrected now.
Macca has clarified that he is defending CD rather than knocking vinyl, all good.
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Post by antonio on Mar 24, 2020 6:02:44 GMT
And backing up Macca's argument, in HiFi News April 2020, there is a review of a Sony 557 ESD cd player in their vintage hifi section. It is given a great review. and I quote 'Overhaul its sound is ultra fast and super detailed'.
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Post by firebottle on Mar 25, 2020 14:27:05 GMT
Great reading James. For one who has been behind the curve regarding FBA and good digital playback I am rapidly catching up, particularly with a very recent order.
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Post by stevew on Mar 25, 2020 15:32:17 GMT
Another great read Jim. Your old streamer still serves me well in the kitchen system. Streaming Tidal whilst chopping, especially when it sounds pretty good. However having picked up an SP10 from Angus on Sat (please note that I’ve been self isolating for a month till then!)... I’m having something of an analogue melt down... no that’s not right. Just a jaw dropping experience for me. It’s so much of an experience not sure I can adequately describe it. I will do, but for now just to say that I cannot imagine a digital source giving me what vinyl at long long last can do. Mind you.. always interested.. what you got Alan?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 25, 2020 16:26:38 GMT
Ha, i featured in the blog.....buzzing lol
Seriously, you have a great point there about the DAC killing the sound or making it a memorable experience.
There is a lot to that section and it's one i will expand on in my own blog in the near future. Especially the DAC chip "sound"
Again, great instalment of the blog. I read it from the sun drenched hot tub in my garden. Marvellous. Now enjoying an Ice Cold Pepsi Max in the sun.
It's like being on holiday lol
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Post by firebottle on Mar 25, 2020 17:27:49 GMT
Mind you.. always interested.. what you got Alan? I have ordered a Topping D90. I will report when arrived and assessed.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 25, 2020 17:28:25 GMT
Ha, i featured in the blog.....buzzing lol Seriously, you have a great point there about the DAC killing the sound or making it a memorable experience. There is a lot to that section and it's one i will expand on in my own blog in the near future. Especially the DAC chip "sound" Again, great instalment of the blog. I read it from the sun drenched hot tub in my garden. Marvellous. Now enjoying an Ice Cold Pepsi Max in the sun. It's like being on holiday lol Haha - Hot tub and Ice cold pepsi sounds great.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 25, 2020 17:42:37 GMT
Ha, i featured in the blog.....buzzing lol Seriously, you have a great point there about the DAC killing the sound or making it a memorable experience. There is a lot to that section and it's one i will expand on in my own blog in the near future. Especially the DAC chip "sound" Again, great instalment of the blog. I read it from the sun drenched hot tub in my garden. Marvellous. Now enjoying an Ice Cold Pepsi Max in the sun. It's like being on holiday lol Haha - Hot tub and Ice cold pepsi sounds great. It was delightful.....seriously. Pepsi so cold, there was condensation on the glass. That's how To lockdown in style
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 18:22:14 GMT
Are you sure it was not a cold tub and a hot Pepsi?
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