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Post by hendrixfan on Feb 24, 2020 20:20:07 GMT
I did say no comment on your system but this one slipped through lol Like I always say, you don't buy stuff to look at it! My apologies, each to their own I suppose... I guess you would hate the rectangular boxes that I own. I have just let go of rectangular box type speakers myself, I’ve been hearing my mates Mummies for a few years now and they are very special, they are not normal in looks or sound to be fair 🔊😊
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Post by covenant on Mar 13, 2020 9:37:27 GMT
Some times you need to man up and say you were right and I was wrong...... I didnt like the Dueland wire one bit. It was dull and lacked top end sparkle. The comment made earlier in the thread about tin being less conductive seems accurate to me. It was a relief to put back my old cables. So, is this a system dependant thing or clever advertising and over the top reviews creating such diverse opinions?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 10:17:19 GMT
The choice of speaker cable is not (electrically) a universal panacea, nor can generalisations be drawn universally except where highly reactive cables are concerned. People tend to forget that it's one link in a whole circuit formed by your amps' output stage and the loudspeaker load which is highly reactive in terms of both impedance with frequency and in terms of things like back emf which has an impact on the driving amplifier (and hence why damping factor is important). Each system may be unique in this respect.
If you ditch the majority of reactive cable designs (ie those which are highly capacitative) then really it's the remaining reactance characteristics and gauge which become important.
Recommending a specific cable for one system where it will work well as it's a perfect match for those system configurations will not mean that it will also be a perfect match for other systems, other than the characteristic of total loop resistance.
I keep a fair few here for comparison purposes, from a £900 3m pair to an inexpensive multistrand. For my own system, whilst there may be minor differences between cables of similar guage, the only time a major change was heard was when experimenting with 2mm2 chinese multistrand which was woven into a braid. It killed dynamics and was rolled off due to capacitance being high. Even in non-braided form it made music sound dull. It was the worst recycled copper rubbish I've ever tested and went into the recycling bin.
I then tested other cables against the most expensive one, and one stood out head and shoulders for me as the best...Fisual S Flex 2.5mm2. Inexpensive, high quality ultra pure OFC made in GB, well made, and with controlled capacitance (being on the low side). It has so far beat most comers.
Speaker cable is one area where more spent does not = better performance. You simply have to match cable with circuit requirements and try and keep loop resistance low.
For those who were unaware, loop resistance starts become critical in terms of things like bass control where you have a passive crossover that already contains relatively high losses of, say, more than 0.5 to 0.75 ohms combined with a relatively low minimum impedance in the bass sections, particularly in the sub 150 Htz regions.
ANY resistance added to the already relatively high crossover losses combine with amplifier output impedance and speaker cable loop resistance to reduce damping factor and control and can lead to poorer sound quality into the lower midrange area.
All you can do is to use a reasonable gauge to minimise losses and avoid reactive cables and it's a safe bet you'll pick a cable that works fine. Avoiding anything braided or containing filters, or flat cables like the flat ribbon back to back stacked cables (I've seen these result in an amp's output stage catching fire!) is good advice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 10:20:30 GMT
Some times you need to man up and say you were right and I was wrong...... I didnt like the Dueland wire one bit. It was dull and lacked top end sparkle. The comment made earlier in the thread about tin being less conductive seems accurate to me. It was a relief to put back my old cables. So, is this a system dependant thing or clever advertising and over the top reviews creating such diverse opinions? Tin plating is just solder tinning, one way of preventing corrosion of exposed copper surfaces which is why it is used. It's not for specific hifi design, and neither was OFC....both were critical for reliable longevity and reliable serviceability in military avionics (prior to optic fibre taking over) and medical kit. There are plenty of superb tin plated speaker cables on the market so it's unlikely that tinned surfaces are wholly responsible. It could be a number of factors...what was the cable construction....have you a photo?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 10:32:50 GMT
Bought and collected some yesterday, and an interconnects kits with the duelund dca20ga cable.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2020 10:54:10 GMT
The choice of speaker cable is not (electrically) a universal panacea, nor can generalisations be drawn universally except where highly reactive cables are concerned. People tend to forget that it's one link in a whole circuit formed by your amps' output stage and the loudspeaker load which is highly reactive in terms of both impedance with frequency and in terms of things like back emf which has an impact on the driving amplifier (and hence why damping factor is important). Each system may be unique in this respect. If you ditch the majority of reactive cable designs (ie those which are highly capacitative) then really it's the remaining reactance characteristics and gauge which become important. Recommending a specific cable for one system where it will work well as it's a perfect match for those system configurations will not mean that it will also be a perfect match for other systems, other than the characteristic of total loop resistance. I keep a fair few here for comparison purposes, from a £900 3m pair to an inexpensive multistrand. For my own system, whilst there may be minor differences between cables of similar guage, the only time a major change was heard was when experimenting with 2mm2 chinese multistrand which was woven into a braid. It killed dynamics and was rolled off due to capacitance being high. Even in non-braided form it made music sound dull. It was the worst recycled copper rubbish I've ever tested and went into the recycling bin. I then tested other cables against the most expensive one, and one stood out head and shoulders for me as the best...Fisual S Flex 2.5mm2. Inexpensive, high quality ultra pure OFC made in GB, well made, and with controlled capacitance (being on the low side). It has so far beat most comers. Speaker cable is one area where more spent does not = better performance. You simply have to match cable with circuit requirements and try and keep loop resistance low. For those who were unaware, loop resistance starts become critical in terms of things like bass control where you have a passive crossover that already contains relatively high losses of, say, more than 0.5 to 0.75 ohms combined with a relatively low minimum impedance in the bass sections, particularly in the sub 150 Htz regions. ANY resistance added to the already relatively high crossover losses combine with amplifier output impedance and speaker cable loop resistance to reduce damping factor and control and can lead to poorer sound quality into the lower midrange area. All you can do is to use a reasonable gauge to minimise losses and avoid reactive cables and it's a safe bet you'll pick a cable that works fine. Avoiding anything braided or containing filters, or flat cables like the flat ribbon back to back stacked cables (I've seen these result in an amp's output stage catching fire!) is good advice. I used Fisual S-Flex for absolutely ages but it was quite substantially upended by my own speaker cables. If I do manage to get down to see you, I'll bring them with me, just for fun mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 11:12:42 GMT
Please do Oli.
I have various home brewed creations here too plus Black Rhodium (which I like).
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2020 11:15:59 GMT
Please do Oli. I have various home brewed creations here too plus Black Rhodium (which I like). I just really enjoy listening to the stuff people make, rather than the mass produced stuff. Love to hear your stuff. I'll see what plans are like over the next few weeks, if Covid-19 hasn't shut the country down of course.
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Post by covenant on Mar 13, 2020 11:32:07 GMT
'I then tested other cables against the most expensive one, and one stood out head and shoulders for me as the best...Fisual S Flex 2.5mm2. Inexpensive, high quality ultra pure OFC made in GB, well made, and with controlled capacitance (being on the low side). It has so far beat most comers.'
Ha, my old cable that I have returned to is Fisual Hollywood twist so probably very similar. Good to know the technical reasons, thanks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 12:23:28 GMT
I like the Fisual stuff. It's a brand owned by AV Online, a small family run business who market and make some pretty decent stuff at sane prices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 12:24:50 GMT
Please do Oli. I have various home brewed creations here too plus Black Rhodium (which I like). I just really enjoy listening to the stuff people make, rather than the mass produced stuff. Love to hear your stuff. I'll see what plans are like over the next few weeks, if Covid-19 hasn't shut the country down of course. As long as you're not coughing like a chain smoker or sneezing like a snotty thing, you're most welcome.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2020 13:01:47 GMT
I just really enjoy listening to the stuff people make, rather than the mass produced stuff. Love to hear your stuff. I'll see what plans are like over the next few weeks, if Covid-19 hasn't shut the country down of course. As long as you're not coughing like a chain smoker or sneezing like a snotty thing, you're most welcome. I wouldnt visit anyone in those conditions, even if Covid wasnt about. I hate people bringing their germs to work etc, if you're Ill, stay at home!!!!
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Post by karma67 on Mar 13, 2020 15:04:13 GMT
ive just dug out my Fisual S Flex from under the bed,yep still sounds thin in my system,back to my trusty 6mm van damme hi fi cable. edit, hang on a minute im plugging it back in again lol
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2020 15:45:54 GMT
ive just dug out my Fisual S Flex from under the bed,yep still sounds thin in my system,back to my trusty 6mm van damme hi fi cable. edit, hang on a minute im plugging it back in again lol
Are you still trying lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 16:21:33 GMT
Make sure it's the pointy bit at the end you're plugging in and not your shoelaces LoL!
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Post by karma67 on Mar 13, 2020 16:28:24 GMT
the best bit is i found my old W#nk sock!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,358
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2020 16:33:19 GMT
the best bit is i found my old W#nk sock!
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 14, 2020 11:16:57 GMT
Only one of your feet gets cold when you're wa_nking, that's weird...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 10:09:03 GMT
.......back to my trusty 6mm van damme hi fi cable.....
I use the blue 4mm variant and have compared it with absolutely nothing. Seems to work just fine as there's a decent amount of copper involved. No idea how or if it can be improved though.
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