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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 22:36:57 GMT
NVA amplification deserves a thread on here, IMO.
Used to use AP10P, to drive Neat Petite III Speakers in a bedroom. The sound was musical and awfully enjoyable. The source I used at the time, was the MK1 Rega Planet CD Player. One of my favourites CD spinners of all time!
Do I see myself using NVA amplification, again in the future?.....Who knows? But, tomorrow never comes.
S.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 3, 2018 23:15:11 GMT
The AP10P is just the raw musical truth of what this make is capable of I think. What these amps do well is addictive, but the higher you go, the more in the recordings played are revealed and they 'never' seem to ruin an iffy recording either. That's why I respect them so much and for the money, there's little to touch 'em for these musical qualities. I'd go as far as to say that most current gear lacks this 'human' touch with the music and you have to spend loads to get this sound quality but in a posh looking case..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 20:49:52 GMT
I experienced hell using Royd Sapphire with AP10P. Just couldn't listen for more than 20 min. Ear Rape!!
S.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 5, 2018 12:59:15 GMT
The AP10 is basically a small-room (student) amp to be played at moderate levels. It's perfect for headphones too, hence the 'P' version and without the ballast resistors on the output, even one of these would blow your ears and the phones too!
One great thing about NVA amps is the way they deal with being overdriven. Rather than hard clip and go really nasty as many lower powered amps do, NVA's sound 'breathless' first and then just sound 'strained and compressed' rather than harsh if you push them further. One reason why a 20W amp can appear to sound like a 80W one if it behaves itself when pushed too hard.
I don't know the mid period Royds, having been put off the brand with the earlier ones. Small boxes with a bit of bass do tend to lack efficiency (make them efficient and the bass goes away). I don't know the Saphires, but I fear they needed something more powerful.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 13:11:20 GMT
The Sapphire is nasty raw little cu*t.....Period!
S.
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Post by antonio on Jun 5, 2018 13:42:52 GMT
I won't be buying a pair of them then Shane.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 5, 2018 13:57:14 GMT
The Sapphire is nasty raw little cu*t.....Period! S. I loved mine I think I lie a bit more treble than you though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 13:59:22 GMT
Not surprised with that, Andrew.
S.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 5, 2018 13:59:40 GMT
The AP10P is just the raw musical truth of what this make is capable of I think. What these amps do well is addictive, but the higher you go, the more in the recordings played are revealed and they 'never' seem to ruin an iffy recording either. That's why I respect them so much and for the money, there's little to touch 'em for these musical qualities. I'd go as far as to say that most current gear lacks this 'human' touch with the music and you have to spend loads to get this sound quality but in a posh looking case.. Good point about some gear not helping when it comes to iffy recordings. NVA does this well. I found the Townshend Rock to be the fussiest about recordings, until I heard Glastonburys. They can be wonderful with good recordings and good kit, but they let you know if their diet is in any way compromised.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 5, 2018 17:11:31 GMT
The Rock 2 was a royal pain for cack-handed idiots like me to use, but it DID sound honest to the recorded source and neutral, especially with a Decca (Max had good master tapes as reference and was one of the first to acknowledge how close if not 99% identical 'good digital' could be to the master as he had a few master tapes, vinyl and CD of the same things with which to compare) How I wish I was still in the dem room to show you lot it's more than bloody words!
The Rock 2 was half the price of an LP12 I recall (£550 compared to a grand I seem to remember, but I was never good at prices).
One thing NVA (all of it) does is show how bloody over-designed so much Top End gear is. I respect the likes of Pass-Labs, where the man himself admits his products are bullet proof electrically and heavily made for a price yet still sounding good, but he has some simpler wilder designs which he's given for nowt for DIY people. What I don't respect is less than good products hyped to the eyeballs in outlandish expensive custom casework and outrageous price tags added. The fact much of this plummets in value like a used car and may be difficult or impossible to service later on is another reason. Not all of this sh*t has the cachet of vintage Naim, which now sells for outrageous prices, isn't really reliable once the time-bomb caps and circuit drifting is taken into account and the current streaming stuff is necessarily replaced far too regularly for my liking.
Not for me to really try to discuss NVA's innards, but I don't think the components are liable to be unobtainable any time soon and even the baby amps have supply caps over-rated for the job they have to do, the rectifiers are probably ten times more than they need to be (guesswork here), the driver and output transistors are 100V rated run often at around half that, so basically they should be utterly reliable if used as instructed with suitable cabling and lastly, they may run warm if thrashed mercilessly, but I've not so far known one run so hot you get thermal issues. The hottest part is actually the resistor feeding the led on the front!
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 6, 2018 9:27:33 GMT
I would've loved to try a Decca but I have held back due to their fragility and also their reputation for making "heaven and hell" of good/bad recordings. I do like the look of everything Max has made, I even like the Rock without plinth and lid.
I remember the Rock 2 being £350 when the LP12 was £471. That was 1987. Merlin was £150 and plinth and lid were similar, but I can't recall exact prices. Xerxes was over £600 I recall and for me it was worth the extra.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 6, 2018 11:44:37 GMT
The Garrott Microscanner isn't a 'normal' Decca. Used in the right arm and deck, it's totally benign and just lets the music sing out as near as recorded as possible. A standard Decca Gold, Decca-podded' or otherwise, is a snappy beast which is unreliable and takes no prisoners. I don't currently have a deck able to take the Microscanner properly, but the cartridge ain't going anywhere
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Post by dsjr on Jun 6, 2018 12:01:24 GMT
By the way... I may wax lyrical about some old Top End stuff built like a brick outhouse and with humungous power supplies able to drive almost a short circuit with ease (you know what I mean), but NVA amps seem to bring you back down to earth when used with speakers that don't need all this humungous bullshit and dosh chucked their way. Two entirely different approaches in design as well as financial investment... Doesn't mean I can ignore the very Top End though, just look on in bafflement at where and dhow these people got the money to spend on such confections...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 23:29:32 GMT
By the way... I may wax lyrical about some old Top End stuff built like a brick outhouse and with humungous power supplies able to drive almost a short circuit with ease (you know what I mean), but NVA amps seem to bring you back down to earth when used with speakers that don't need all this humungous bullshit and dosh chucked their way. Two entirely different approaches in design as well as financial investment... Doesn't mean I can ignore the very Top End though, just look on in bafflement at where and dhow these people got the money to spend on such confections... Hi Dave, I know the NVA Amps are supposed to be used with specific speaker cable as directed by RD, Is this because they don't have a Zobel Network? If thats the case, why isnt there a Zobel Network? Is there an adverse effect on the signal?
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 2:31:34 GMT
I remembered this being discussed when I was at HFS. I was going to try and give you my half-arsed version but I went back and found this from Richard, which is detailed and informative.
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:39 pm
People also generally don't understand why some amp circuits like NVA, early Naim, Exposure and most of the 80's ones we have lost like the Onix (mentioned in the "have a punt" thread) need to talk about / stipulate speaker cabling. In those days designers were looking for sound quality not good specs, which is what influenced the previous generation. One of the simplest ways of getting good specs is to take out the influence of variations in reactive load from loudspeakers and loudspeaker cables. There is a type of passive filter designed by Bell Labs in the 1920's for telephone transmission lines called a Zobel network that does this. It is a passive multi component filter that is for stabilising a line as opposed to frequency filtering it as with crossover network filters (though it still has that effect to a degree). It was de rigueur in early solid state amps but not normally needed in valve amps as the output transformer performed a similar function.
Naim were the first to do without it, but it meant stipulating the best load (including cable) for its output stage. I followed suite very quickly when I heard the benefit of removing it, but in my case I needed low cap in cable where as Naim needed high inductance (very similar as the two are related). Things changed again with the on set of CE regs in the early 90's as with Class 1 (case earthed) construction it was impossible to meet the regs without putting the Zobel (or similar) back in. I still don't use the filter as class 2 regs can be used to avoid it, and some amp makers just blag the regs and hope no one notices.
So a Zobel network in the output of an amplifier has a similar effect to complex (BBC type) crossovers on the music, it time (phase) smears it and loses information. Basically because they are both multiple passive component filters sitting on the music. BUT like everything in electronics there is no free lunch. You have a choice, go for a unconditionally stable circuit (like Quad) and you can do what you like within reason on the output, but for me that make a relatively muddy sat on amp. OR like I do go for conditional stability which means I have to stipulate speaker cable and make loudspeaker recommendations. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice - for me that choice is to go for the music at almost any cost. NOW that means sometimes you will get stability problems and sometimes you haven't a clue why, a classic case has been the two amp in Europe (one in Switzerland and one in France) and one at Gromits new gaff in the UK where they get a distortion that sound like a smear or noise around some notes or note patterns, mostly showing up on piano - this is instability, it is the amplifier wanting to "latch up" or "take off" as it is often referred to. As it is only three customers it hasn't been a big problem but I would still like to cure it without having to revert to a Zobel network. As and when I have time I am working with Gromit with small mods to see if I can cure it, so far with only small success.
by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:52 pm
Some (like Naim) need output filtering, but the circuit doesn't have it, so the cable does that job. It is another con to try and prove other things are worse by using them out of context. Interesting even though NVA cable doesn't have high inductance it works well with Naim amps.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 8:23:51 GMT
To Bigman,
In a way, Zobel networks on the amp output are there to help protect the amp from external influences and for some users it still isn't enough, so they add another one to the speakers by means of a magic wooden box, which often have impedance correcting networks added to what's already there in the crossover, so complete and total overkill..... I also understand (not from RD) that ideally, this network on the outputs should be dedicated to the specific speaker and cables used. Way over my head this one, but many manufacturers have found a setup for this that works with most speakers without destroying damping factor (look on the Stereophile reviews to see what valve amps with low damping factor do to a typical speaker...).
NVA to me, kind of follows the 'keep it simple' approach. This is FINE if a little intelligence is used in cable choice and hell, even LS2 is just fine as a straight 2.5mm install cable off the drum (other NVA cables are hand made with individual insulated strands and it's a bit of an art-form in its own way...).
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NVA Amps
Jul 4, 2018 13:48:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 13:48:36 GMT
Thanks for that both,
It's a good post.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 16:52:47 GMT
Nope, I would never ever Concider buying one, but that has got nothing to do with the equipment.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 17:43:46 GMT
I’ve removed the chaff. Vlad is entitled to say he/she wouldnt buy. Richard is entitled to say he wouldn’t sell. That’s all that’s needed. Neither of you will need to interact.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 17:47:02 GMT
Merely a principles thing Andrew, not a comment on fidelity.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 18:47:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 18:52:09 GMT
Well said Andrew. This new forum is a nice place and it deserves to stay that way!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 18:55:56 GMT
Highly agreed, Geoff.
S.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 19:02:16 GMT
Cheers, Guys, I can understand that some people have issues and baggage, and I make no judgments about how justified they are.
They are within their rights to devote their lives to such matters, just as I am to say I don’t want to see or hear it here. It spoils the forum, drives decent members away and makes unnecessary work fir me in cleaning it up and dealing with the flak. If I wanted that sort of hassle I’d stil be working and getting paid for dealing with the squabbling.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 19:03:33 GMT
I agree this is one of the best forums going.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 19:10:01 GMT
My forum top 10.....
audioaddicts 10/10 snakeoilaudio 9/10 AOS 8/10 TAS 7/10 Wam 6/10 audiotalk 5/10 Hifi pig 4/10 Hoffman 3/10 What hifi 2/10 HFS 1/10
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 20:02:06 GMT
I agree this is one of the best forums going. I agree! This forum has a ''feel good'' factor about it. S.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 5, 2018 4:54:32 GMT
I have again heavily pruned the thread because I don’t want forum to be derailed by nonsense. Measures will be taken to ensure no further disruption takes place. I have explained my admin decisions and parties involved have been able to read them. Time to move on. What’s on the thread stays. What follows needs to be on topic. If you have nothing to contribute about NVA then please don’t post in this thread,
I won’t be dragged into indulging the nonsense by justifying myself further either. I ried that and it just led to more nonsense. From now on if it’s the same stuff I don’t want to see on the forum it will simply be gone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 9:16:22 GMT
Admin: Eidted to keep focus in the gear.
Right...Back to topic.
Are there any magazine reviews available, particularly with measurements Ala Stereophile of NVA equipment ? Altho the latter may not always indicate how a piece of equipment reproduces the recording they are useful when assessing impedance and speaker matching etc.etc.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 5, 2018 9:29:21 GMT
Right...Back to topic. Are there any magazine reviews available, particularly with measurements Ala Stereophile of NVA equipment ? Altho the latter may not always indicate how a piece of equipment reproduces the recording they are useful when assessing impedance and speaker matching etc.etc. Kessler reviewed the AP10h in earlier form and there was also a Paul Miller? test of the A30? but this was of the pre-2005 version with different board layouts.
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